[necro]Creator? Big Bang? Or God?? - Armor Games Community

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paintballer222

565 posts

Nomad

Posted March 13, '09 7:05pm UTC

I was just saying that a Big Bamg cannot make infite space and then planets and stars all different. Then make molecuels and atoms with gravity and planets spinning in perfect motion. think about it it is impossible. Can a Big bAng make Humans all different and bugs and animals that are microscopic. It's just impossible

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Pixie214

5,838 posts

Peasant

Posted March 13, '09 7:08pm UTC

Did I and, I think, eyetwitch not answer most of those points. And it is evidently not impossible. Impossible is very extreme to be honest.

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eyetwitch

737 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 14, '09 5:06am UTC

what does arguing for a deity have to do with his statement? Let's pretend he was. What will you say? What about if he wasn't? You don't really need his answer if you ask me. If he wasn't arguing for a deity, why would he ask that question?

I's just confirming, to the extreme, because there is so much wrong with that statement. To explain...
Paintballer222,
This may be a bit too complicated, but you need to know or you'll lose every argument that way. To explain, i give you the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.
Conclusion 1: Therefore, the universe must have a cause.
This argument, obviously, is used to argue for the existence of a deity/creator. As a theist you have to believe that the universe is finite. An infinite universe supports the entire idea of atheism. Some form of matter in the universe is infinite, and as such had plenty of "time" to give rise to the formation of the galaxies/stars/earth/life/humans/etc. The idea of an infinite universe supports atheism, the idea of the big bang supports theism. The original beliefs may have been flipped, but the universe must be finite, because it must have been created, otherwise it always existed.

[i]what does arguing for a deity have to do with his statement?  Let's pretend he was.  What will you say?  What about if he wasn't?  You don't really need his answer if you ask me.  If he wasn't arguing for a deity, why would he ask that question?[/i]\r\n\r\nI's just confirming, to the extreme, because there is so much wrong with that statement.  To explain...\r\nPaintballer222,\r\nThis may be a bit too complicated, but you need to know or you'll lose every argument that way.  To explain, i give you the Kalam Cosmological Argument.\r\nPremise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.\r\nPremise 2: The universe began to exist.\r\nConclusion 1: Therefore, the universe must have a cause.\r\nThis argument, obviously, is used to argue for the existence of a deity/creator.  As a theist you have to believe that the universe is finite.  An infinite universe supports the entire idea of atheism.  Some form of matter in the universe is infinite, and as such had plenty of "time" to give rise to the formation of the galaxies/stars/earth/life/humans/etc.  The idea of an infinite universe supports atheism, the idea of the big bang supports theism.  The original beliefs may have been flipped, but the universe must be finite, because it must have been created, otherwise it always existed.

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paintballer222

565 posts

Nomad

Posted March 14, '09 5:09pm UTC

It was created God has always existed. How does infinte universs support athiests?

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d_dude

3,523 posts

Peasant

Posted March 15, '09 12:52am UTC

nobody has enough proof. What do I mean?

1. How was God created?
2. How did the big bang happen?

nobody can actually answer this so really once you think about it... either Jesus made the idea of God up to get popular or he was right.

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Pixie214

5,838 posts

Peasant

Posted March 15, '09 12:55am UTC

How did the big bang happen?

Membranes in the 11th dimension collided. Easy

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hoboonfire

112 posts

Nomad

Posted March 15, '09 1:08am UTC

NOBODY KNOWS THe ANSWER UNLESS GOD HIMSELF CAME

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Ninjacube

584 posts

Nomad

Posted March 15, '09 1:09am UTC

Well, eyetwitch, I have a few things to point out about your argument. Assuming the scenario that God made the universe, which I believe is true, means that before he created it, there was nothing. No matter anyways. God however didn't create space. Space for the matter to fill. The Space can be infinite, matter can't. So God can coexist with an infinite universe.

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eyetwitch

737 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 16, '09 2:05am UTC

Ninjacube and paintballer222,
OK i conceed God can possibly exist alongside an infinite universe, however, if the universe was infinite I'd be an atheist (well, there is the personal experience too...but...). That being said, i think the universe is finite.

1. How was God created?...nobody can actually answer this so ...

So suddenly I and millions of other theists have become "nobody" according to d_dude
God is not bound by time. He is eternal, neither created nor destroyed. He exists for forever in the past and in the future.

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Parsat

2,180 posts

Blacksmith

Posted March 16, '09 4:55am UTC

Wait, who here believes in an infinite universe? They deserved to be slapped with the mighty power of entropy and singularities. Such thought has been entirely discredited for decades now.

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CubanFrog

480 posts

Nomad

Posted March 16, '09 6:42pm UTC

Well, it's hard to believe to infinite universe, but it's even harder to think that universe is ending somewhere...

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paintballer222

565 posts

Nomad

Posted March 16, '09 11:48pm UTC

If god was created he wouldn't be God the creater or God would be God if you know what I'm talking about.

Well, it's hard to believe to infinite universe, but it's even harder to think that universe is ending somewhere...

If it was finite there would be some proof of something finding the end. I just don't think that would be right.
G

od is not bound by time. He is eternal, neither created nor destroyed. He exists for forever in the past and in the future.

This is true he is not bound by time and he is eternal.

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eyetwitch

737 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 17, '09 6:59pm UTC

paintballer222,
I'm debating whether or not to introduce Hilbert's Hotel to this thread...eh...why not?
One of the reasons why the universe is finite is because there can logically be no "actual infinite". An infinite anything can not exist, because logically it makes no sense. To explain this we'll look at Hilbert's hotel paradox. Imagine a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms existing in a world with an infinite amount of people. So scenario one: One man comes to the hotel looking for a room while it is already occupied by an infinite amount of people. The hotel manager makes up for this by simply moving the infinite amount of people down 1 room, thus creating 1 room of space. Therefore, Infinity-Infinity=1. Scenario 2: An infinite amount of people show up to the hotel to get rooms, and an infinite amount of people are leaving on the same day. So, the hotel manager makes sure that the infinite amount of people leaving are in odd numbered rooms. Thus the infinite amount of people in even rooms are undisturbed while the infinite amount of people in the odd rooms move. Thus, Infinity-Infinity=Infinity. Final Scenario: The Hotel, while occupied by an infinite amount of people, is shutdown and everyone must leave. Hence, Infinity-Infinity=0.
So,
Infinity-Infinity=1
Infinity-Infinity=Infinity
Infinity-Infinity=0
I hope you see the illogicality of our situation, and infinity itself.

paintballer222,\r\nI'm debating whether or not to introduce Hilbert's Hotel to this thread...eh...why not?\r\nOne of the reasons why the universe is finite is because there can logically be no "actual infinite".  An infinite anything can not exist, because logically it makes no sense.  To explain this we'll look at Hilbert's hotel paradox.  Imagine a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms existing in a world with an infinite amount of people.  So scenario one: One man comes to the hotel looking for a room while it is already occupied by an infinite amount of people.  The hotel manager makes up for this by simply moving the infinite amount of people down 1 room, thus creating 1 room of space.  Therefore, Infinity-Infinity=1.  Scenario 2: An infinite amount of people show up to the hotel to get rooms, and an infinite amount of people are leaving on the same day.  So, the hotel manager makes sure that the infinite amount of people leaving are in odd numbered rooms.  Thus the infinite amount of people in even rooms are undisturbed while the infinite amount of people in the odd rooms move.  Thus, Infinity-Infinity=Infinity.  Final Scenario: The Hotel, while occupied by an infinite amount of people, is shutdown and everyone must leave.  Hence, Infinity-Infinity=0.\r\nSo,\r\nInfinity-Infinity=1\r\nInfinity-Infinity=Infinity\r\nInfinity-Infinity=0\r\nI hope you see the illogicality of our situation, and infinity itself.

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Skyla

291 posts

Peasant

Posted March 17, '09 10:08pm UTC

If it was finite there would be some proof of something finding the end. I just don't think that would be right.

Have you heard of CBR?

This is true he is not bound by time and he is eternal.

If God is not bound by time, then he is not bound by space either, because the leading explaination proposes that time and space were created together, along with matter. Now, if God existed before the big bang, then he is "outside" of time and space, and he cannot affect us in anyway, and so essentially non-existant. If he is bound by our laws, then that would defy his omnipotence again leading to the conclusion that he is either not all-powerful or non-existant.

Wait, who here believes in an infinite universe?

Who are you to say what has been discreditted and what is accepted. Don't go around making claims with no evidence backing them up.

I am in no position to say whether the universe is finite or infinite, but I do not rule out any possibilities. Before I go about on this point, I'd like to say that I don't see how the finiteness or infiniteness of the universe is related to the existance of God. The existance of God defies logic and so cannot be proven or disproven.

I presume all people who believe in a finite universe believe that is it expanding, and is it not true that the entire argument for the expansion of the universe is based on red shift? Red shift has not been proven to exist and as far as the scientific community is concerned it could be nothing more than the effect of gravity waves that promulgate faster than the speed of light, which in turn would cause the galaxies to appear red shifted even though we are living in an inert universe. The finiteness of the universe brings up mass confusion on its own, wouldn't the forces of gravity of all the objects collapse on themselves?

My personal belief on this topic is that the universe is infinite, but the matter in it is finite and expanding. For example, imagine two particles in space that impose no force on each other. Over a period of time, these two particles will accelerate in opposite direction due to the expansion of space. In this case I'd say it's reasonable to state that space is expanding. In a nutshell, the total size of the universe is not growing because it is already infinite, but the distance between the two particles that are not held together by any external force will grow.

Personally, the concept of an infinite and expanding universe makes more sense than strictly finite or infinite. For example, think of the infinite set of odd numbers (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.) Now, insert the infinite set of even numbers into that set. The amount of numbers increase, but still, they remain infinite. What I mean is that the universe is infinite and not expanding, but the observable universe (visible and dark matter) is expanding. I've used this drawing before and I hope it clears things up, the zeros are the OU (observable universe) and the dots are the universe as a whole, the dots are supposed to be infinite in all directions.

......................................
..........00000000..........
.........0000000000.........
........000000000000........
.........0000000000.........
..........00000000..........
.............................

I'm off to bed, if this thread is still alive in the morning I'll hop onto CBR.

If something ends, something else must start, right? There can't be "nothing" unless nothingness cannot be comprehended by the human mind.

-Skyla

[quote]If it was finite there would be some proof of something finding the end. I just don't think that would be right.[/quote]\r\n\r\nHave you heard of CBR?\r\n\r\n[quote]This is true he is not bound by time and he is eternal.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf God is not bound by time, then he is not bound by space either, because the leading explaination proposes that time and space were created together, along with matter. Now, if God existed before the big bang, then he is "outside" of time and space, and he cannot affect us in anyway, and so essentially non-existant. If he is bound by our laws, then that would defy his omnipotence again leading to the conclusion that he is either not all-powerful or non-existant.\r\n\r\n[quote]Wait, who here believes in an infinite universe? [/quote]\r\n\r\nWho are you to say what has been discreditted and what is accepted. Don't go around making claims with no evidence backing them up.\r\n\r\nI am in no position to say whether the universe is finite or infinite, but I do not rule out any possibilities. Before I go about on this point, I'd like to say that I don't see how the finiteness or infiniteness of the universe is related to the existance of God. The existance of God defies logic and so cannot be proven or disproven.\r\n\r\nI presume all people who believe in a finite universe believe that is it expanding, and is it not true that the entire argument for the expansion of the universe is based on red shift? Red shift has not been proven to exist and as far as the scientific community is concerned it could be nothing more than the effect of gravity waves that promulgate faster than the speed of light, which in turn would cause the galaxies to appear red shifted even though we are living in an inert universe. The finiteness of the universe brings up mass confusion on its own, wouldn't the forces of gravity of all the objects collapse on themselves?\r\n\r\nMy personal belief on this topic is that the universe is infinite, but the matter in it is finite and expanding. For example, imagine two particles in space that impose no force on each other. Over a period of time, these two particles will accelerate in opposite direction due to the expansion of space. In this case I'd say it's reasonable to state that space is expanding. In a nutshell, the total size of the universe is not growing because it is already infinite, but the distance between the two particles that are not held together by any external force will grow.\r\n\r\nPersonally, the concept of an infinite and expanding universe makes more sense than strictly finite or infinite. For example, think of the infinite set of odd numbers (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc.) Now, insert the infinite set of even numbers into that set. The amount of numbers increase, but still, they remain infinite. What I mean is that the universe is infinite and not expanding, but the observable universe (visible and dark matter) is expanding. I've used this drawing before and I hope it clears things up, the zeros are the OU (observable universe) and the dots are the universe as a whole, the dots are supposed to be infinite in all directions.\r\n\r\n......................................\r\n..........00000000..........\r\n.........0000000000.........\r\n........000000000000........\r\n.........0000000000.........\r\n..........00000000..........\r\n.............................\r\n\r\nI'm off to bed, if this thread is still alive in the morning I'll hop onto CBR.\r\n\r\nIf something ends, something else must start, right? There can't be "nothing" unless nothingness cannot be comprehended by the human mind.\r\n\r\n-Skyla

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eyetwitch

737 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 17, '09 10:28pm UTC

If God is not bound by time, then he is not bound by space either, because the leading explaination proposes that time and space were created together, along with matter. Now, if God existed before the big bang, then he is "outside" of time and space, and he cannot affect us in anyway, and so essentially non-existant. If he is bound by our laws, then that would defy his omnipotence again leading to the conclusion that he is either not all-powerful or non-existant.

He "exists" outside of time and space, yes. However, his omnipotence allows him to act inside of time and space. He is not bound by our "laws" of the universe, he however does not break them
...but at the same time, he is not technically all-powerful in the true sense of the word. He can not act outside of his own nature. The current thinking is that he is a "simple" being. Meaning, the qualities he possesses he possesses in full and those that he does not he can not possess. He is good therefore all good, and unable to be bad. He is knowing therefore all knowing, and not ignorant. Thus the human term omnipotence breaks down.

[quote]If God is not bound by time, then he is not bound by space either, because the leading explaination proposes that time and space were created together, along with matter. Now, if God existed before the big bang, then he is "outside" of time and space, and he cannot affect us in anyway, and so essentially non-existant. If he is bound by our laws, then that would defy his omnipotence again leading to the conclusion that he is either not all-powerful or non-existant.[/quote]\r\nHe "exists" outside of time and space, yes.  However, his omnipotence allows him to act inside of time and space.  He is not bound by our "laws" of the universe, he however does not break them\r\n...but at the same time, he is not technically all-powerful in the true sense of the word.  He can not act outside of his own nature.  The current thinking is that he is a "simple" being.  Meaning, the qualities he possesses he possesses in full and those that he does not he can not possess.  He is good therefore all good, and unable to be bad.  He is knowing therefore all knowing, and not ignorant.  Thus the human term omnipotence breaks down.

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