ForumsWEPRKnowledge of the External World

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Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

So I thought it might be fun to assess an argument that seems to show we can never know if material objects exists without being perceived. It'll help if you really engage this post and think about these questions as they come up.

So, first: How do we usually verify facts? If I tell you "There's a blue pen on the table," how do you determine if what I said is true? Think about it.
If you're a normal person, you probably said something like "Go look and see if it's there," which is precisely how we verify statements of fact like that. We have to observe the world around us to determine which statements of fact are true.

Second: We would really like to say that material objects (chairs, tables, pens) exist without being perceived (without anyone or anything observing them). This just seems intuitively true - mountains don't disappear just because no one sees them.

Here's the problem: We have a statement of fact, something like "Material objects exist even when unobserved." We would really like this statement to be true, but how do we verify it? No, really. How do we verify this statement to be true?

What we have is a statement that is talking about all unobserved events. As soon as we try to observe these events/material objects they are no longer unobserved. So it seems we can NEVER verify a statement like "All objects continue to exist unobserved."
Therefore, we can never know whether or not material objects exist independently of the mind.

Here's the argument shortened:

1) We must make empirical observations to determine whether or not statement of fact are true.
2) The statement (M) "Material objects exist unobserved - independently of the mind" defines a specific class of observations (O) {x| x is not observed}
3) Any event/object that is observed would not be a member of the set (O).
So, (From 1 and 3) the statement (M) can never be verified.


I suppose we'd need another argument that basically says if something can't be verified then it isn't knowable to get the conclusion. This may be a point of contention.
I'd really like to destroy this argument, if we can.

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Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

consciousness is the process which convinces us that we are conscious :P


Dennett says some weird stuff, and I think I would put this quote in that category
When I look at a statement like this, I have to wonder what the hell he's talking about. Is this in his essay "The 'Hard' Problem of Consciousness"? Or did he even write that... I've been reading so much on justification, testimony, and epistemic luck that I can't remember this stuff anymore.
But anyway, this doesn't help us get at what consciousness is to begin with. I realize that's why it's one of the hard problems, but statements like this just confuse things. It's like saying blueness is what convinces us an object is blue. That just seems silly.
I'm pretty convinced on this point, almost to the point where I would consider it an a priori truth: to even be deceived, something must exist in the first place.
Whatever I really am - whether I am a collective consciousness or something else entirely - I am something!! At least a thing that thinks.
Consciousness may be altogether an illusory process resulting from complex chemical reactions in the brain, but the only reason we call it illusory is that it is deceiving something.
Yep, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced something must exist to be deceived. And anyone who disagrees with me must, by definition, be wrong*

*standard philosophy move no. 27
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

Artificial intelligence is a tricky little critter and I'm not sure it's possible. There are things we can conceive of that have been proven to be "unprogrammable" in a computer. Hopefully you guys can just take my word on this point.


Oh, and going back to this point, I did say in the next millenium. Could anyone have predicted we would be able to go from Beijing to New York in a day and back in 1010? Much less something like the internet, which was entirely unimaginable. If we're not nuclear slag in 3010, there'll be some pretty weird stuff going on; I don't think it's unreasonable to think that some of it will be the simulation of cavemen, if only for Geico RPG.

Whatever I really am - whether I am a collective consciousness or something else entirely - I am something!! At least a thing that thinks.


But that's very important. Just because you exist doesn't mean the perception of true existence is correct, therefore you must acknowledge the possibility that a simulation can be occuring.

It's like saying blueness is what convinces us an object is blue. That just seems silly.


Another interesting concept along this line of thinking is that of Flatland. If there were those existing in a two dimensional world , that would be their reality, knowing nothing of a third dimension. If a 3 dimensional object like a sphere, were to pass through Flatland, the inhabitants would observe only a line, as they would be unable to view both dimensions at the same time, starting out small, and expanding into nothingness. This would not seem plausible to them as it would not be possible in their reality.

Another example I like with this concept is that of two right triangles in Flatland of equal angles, but faced opposite one another (like this: I\\ and /I). No matter how the inhabitants of Flatland try to rotate and move one, it will never seem to resemble the other, but if a being in the third dimension would flip one triangle in the third dimension, they would see it as the exact same triangle.

So what I'm trying to say is that our reality is that of 3 dimensions, but it is very possible that we are merely living in the shadows of the true world (discounting time as a possible candidate), and speaking in terms of a line that is at 90 degrees of all the x, y, and z axis at the same time. How would we know if this wasn't the case? We can generate 4 dimensional images on computers, but all humans can see are their shadows. If we actually could see one, it would blow our minds.

Just some more to ponder.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

But what makes reality real? Is it our senses, or is it because we think it's real. A good example of this is a realistic dream. I've had several dreams in life that seem real and in some cases more real than my waking life. Does this mean that only our consious mind is our reality? If so how do we describe these type of dreams?

Anything we believe can affect what we perceive. If I call a pen green and you call it black does not mean that one of is wrong, it simply means that our perceptions are different. The Party in George Orwell's 1984 had it right. Reality is perception. Of course I am not arguing conformity. You see the only reason so many believe things are the way they are, is because they are subconsciously conformed to the norms that exist.

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

Just because you exist doesn't mean the perception of true existence is correct, therefore you must acknowledge the possibility that a simulation can be occuring.


So let me try to understand this right. You're saying:

A) If I exist, then I will have some perception that I exist.
B) My perception that I exist could be wrong.
C) Therefore, it is possible that I could not exist, or that I exist as a simulation.

Not sure where the logic fits in this one. If we exist, we may be said to exist in the confines of our own 3 dimensional perceived world. Can something exist in the outside? Certainly it could, but it does not affect the truth of our own existence in our own perceived world, simulation or not.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

A) If I exist, then I will have some perception that I exist.
B) My perception that I exist could be wrong.
C) Therefore, it is possible that I could not exist, or that I exist as a simulation.
Not sure where the logic fits in this one. If we exist, we may be said to exist in the confines of our own 3 dimensional perceived world. Can something exist in the outside? Certainly it could, but it does not affect the truth of our own existence in our own perceived world, simulation or not.


On the contrary it could. If I were to tell you that to me you do not exist then you cease to exist. Reality is all what you perceive.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

But that's very important. Just because you exist doesn't mean the perception of true existence is correct, therefore you must acknowledge the possibility that a simulation can be occuring.


Yes, absolutely. But even if I am in a simulation, there is still and "I" that is being deceived. That's the extent of what I'm saying. I make no conjectures about what I am or how I relate to the outside world. The only quality (if you can call it that) that I know I possess is existence.

But what makes reality real? Is it our senses, or is it because we think it's real

I can't tell if this is a linguistic question or a metaphysical one.

A good example of this is a realistic dream. I've had several dreams in life that seem real and in some cases more real than my waking life.


Now I really don't know what you mean by "real". If by real you mean something veritical, something that actually obtains, then how did you know that dream was a dream? The word "dream" is loaded to indicate things the rest of us would consider unreal.

Does this mean that only our consious mind is our reality? If so how do we describe these type of dreams?

We seem to have a good ability to describe dreams within the linguistic framework we have. I can't tell what you're getting at here. Are you saying our current usage of the term "real" isn't as effective as it could be?

If I call a pen green and you call it black does not mean that one of is wrong, it simply means that our perceptions are different.


Person A: I perceive a green pen.
Person B: I perceive a black pen.
This is not a contradiction, even when looking at the same pen.

Person A: That pen is green all over.
Person B: That pen is black all over.
Now we have a logical contradiction. If we are saying of that pen that it possesses a particular attribute, then we are making a statement of fact about the world around us. And something cannot be both green all over and black all over at the same time.

Reality is perception. Of course I am not arguing conformity. You see the only reason so many believe things are the way they are, is because they are subconsciously conformed to the norms that exist.


You say reality is perception and then say that we subconsciously conform to norms that exist. But how do these norms exist outside of perception if reality is perception? How are these norms even established in the first place if reality is just personal sensory experience without any conformity?
I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. But if you're suggesting that reality is completely relative to the perceiver, then you've effectively taken yourself out of the conversation.
This theory is essentially idealism or anti-realism of some sort. You've escaped the problems of direct perception by denying that it exists in the first place.
But where we would like to say that we know things about tables and chairs as a community of cognitive agents, your theory backs you into a linguistic corner where you can't even engage with the rest of the conversation.
While idealism is a philosophically interesting position, it is very unintuitive.

So let me try to understand this right. You're saying:
A) If I exist, then I will have some perception that I exist.
B) My perception that I exist could be wrong.
C) Therefore, it is possible that I could not exist, or that I exist as a simulation.


I think this should read:
A) If I exist, then I will have some perception of how I exist.
B) My perception of how I exist could be wrong.
C) Therefore it is possible that my perception of how I exist is wrong.

We can't conclude from this that it's possible we don't exist. Again, having perceptions in the first place - whether they're real or not - is absolute proof that we exist. We can show that we exist, but not in what manner or how we exist.
I mean, we don't perceive existence. We perceive things like smells and colors and emotions, but not existence itself. Existence is a necessary condition for us to experience these things.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

On the contrary it could. If I were to tell you that to me you do not exist then you cease to exist. Reality is all what you perceive.


You're going to have to give some kind of argument for this (it may help if you read my post above this one) otherwise I'm just going to have to assume that you're talking out of your butt.
I don't see how you telling someone they don't exist has any relation to their actual existence. And aren't you perceiving someone if you're telling them they don't exist?

And statement like "Reality is all what you perceive" is just bad philosophy. Not only is it unclear what exactly you mean, but the terms within the statement are also unclear.
Are you saying that reality is exhausted by what the individual sees? Or are you saying that an individual cannot see what doesn't exist?
The former statement is just wrong, and the latter statement is just trivial.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
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Blacksmith

What I think is a more interesting discussion is whether it even matters, or whether finding out the truth and risking the implications of that is worth the risk.


Read the Holographic universe, it goes into our perception of reality in detail and while not everything he says in the book is scientificly verifiable... it makes you think.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

At Moe.

If you read the post I made before Parasat's then you will see what I am arguing there. If your still do not understand and consider this "bad philosophy" I will happily explain it for you.

Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

SOLIPCIST AT 3 O'CLOCK!

MAN BATTLE STATIONS!

UNTHINKING PROCESS INITIALIZED!

Phew, for a moment I thought that guy existed.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

If your still do not understand and consider this "bad philosophy" I will happily explain it for you.


I read your post and responded to it, I thought, appropriately. If you feel my objections are unfounded, then maybe I am misunderstanding what you're saying. It just seemed inconsistent to me.
But please, feel free to explain.
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
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Nomad

We can't conclude from this that it's possible we don't exist. Again, having perceptions in the first place - whether they're real or not - is absolute proof that we exist. We can show that we exist, but not in what manner or how we exist.
I mean, we don't perceive existence. We perceive things like smells and colors and emotions, but not existence itself. Existence is a necessary condition for us to experience these things.


There's tons of books detailing the ''I think therefore I am'' argument, as well as copious correspondance between Descartes and other philosophers of the time, where they all pretty much come to the conclusion that it's not rigorous. It's more useful as a suggestion of how to go about trying to solve some philosophical problems (throw away all the assumptions and reassess what is self evident or necessary), than as an actual proof of existence. There's also some weird stuff going on like, if you get rid of all the assumptions, how do you know that you're the one thinking, just because you perceive thoughts to be happening in what you perceive to be your mind? Do things need to exist to act, ie., is thinking a sufficient property for existence? The argument is at best ethymeme but probably not that solid.

Really, I think that the ''I think therefore I am'' premise takes a big unjustified leap by including the ''I''. All you can really say is ''thoughts exist, therefore something exists that thinks''. Think of it like multi tasking on your computer; there's several applications running (thoughts being thought), each with its own memories and goals, but they're all being thought on the central processing unit, ram and possibly hard drive. They don't exist independently on your computer hardware, so are they really separate entities.

Of course even the ''therefore something exists that thinks'' implies that thoughts cannot think themselves, therefore all you can really say is ''thoughts exist''.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

therefore all you can really say is ''thoughts exist''.


But if thoughts exist, doesn't that imply a thinker? There's although an intuitive push to try to prove we have a priori knowledge of our own thoughts.
Now that I think about it, as much reading as I've done lately in the discussion over semantic externalism, I've never really considered the metaphysical implications of these theories. Unless I was just trying to do a reductio on an argument or something like that.
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

But if thoughts exist, doesn't that imply a thinker?


Going back to solipsism, you can only know your thoughts exist. If you take into consideration the flaws of ''cogito ero sum'', then the way ''your'' is defined is questionable, therefore only ''thoughts exist''.

To be perfectly honest, I take the pragmatic stance, since we lack the technological advancement necessary to really go after the question of whether our perception of reality is correct. That said, if such technology did exist I would definitely seek enlightenment.
Parsat
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Parsat
2,180 posts
Blacksmith

To be perfectly honest, I take the pragmatic stance, since we lack the technological advancement necessary to really go after the question of whether our perception of reality is correct. That said, if such technology did exist I would definitely seek enlightenment.


I have a feeling that if such technology existed, enlightenment would be the last thing you would achieve.
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