ForumsWEPRAbsolute Truth

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redace333
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redace333
130 posts
Nomad

I see a lot of these debates on here narrow down to whats true and whats not.

I didnt see another topic for this so il post it.

The basic argument here is. Is there truth? is truth relative to you?
Is there any form of complete absolute truth we can rely on? if so what is truth and how can you find it?


a lot of questions asked so this will be interesting.

If you have seen any of my other posts you probably know that i am a christian and i belive that there is truth and gods word( the bible) is where you find it. But we are not debating religion here just views on truth. What do you think?

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Well if something IS something it is only something to one person who believes it as truth. Truth is depicted individually by every human differently. I see something red, you see something red, the world sees something red but is it truly red? Well the wavelengths tell it is red and it just looks plain ol' red right? Well it can't be proven true because there is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, a possibility of something not being true or being something slightly or completely different.


In the sense of absolute truth your right. However in the sense of truth in general not exactly. We can be reasonably certain the pen is red. All the evidence suggests this is so. This evidence isn't going to change based on perception and until further evidence is presented we can say with reasonable certainty that the statement is true, this of course is not an absolute.
Kyousuke
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Kyousuke
50 posts
Nomad

...Does it really matter if the pen is red or not? Do we REALLY need to question the pen's color? XD But I get what you guys are saying...sort of. Following the set truths in this world is fine with me. Once you start questioning what the truth is you start to question morals...which leads to the creation of serial killing psychopaths. =)

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Just thought I'd add some fuel for thought, because there are a number of ways of looking at truth.

Analytic truth: a statement that is true in virtue of meaning alone.
So, a bachelor is an unmarried adult male. That seems necessarily true, no? There is no evidence that could convince us that it's false. If we saw some married guy who was claiming to be a bachelor, we'd just say he's loony.
What about the truths of mathematics and logic? Certainly 2+2=4 is true? What about the law of non-contradiction: ~(P ^ ~P)? Although there are some logic systems that deny non-contradiction.
Quine said that even these truths can be abandoned if we develop a more effective language in which they're false. Quine denied that analytic truths even existed.

Perhaps we need to think of this counterfactually. Instead of asking "What makes 'Snow is white' true?" we should be asking what would have to obtain to make it false.
Of course, then we have to wonder if something isn't false, does that mean it's true? Some philosophers deny this notion (called bivalence). Again, not very popular, but it's there. Can there be propositions that are neither true nor false?

FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

Is there truth? is truth relative to you?
Is there any form of complete absolute truth we can rely on? if so what is truth and how can you find it?


Claiming an absolute truth, with regards to moral issues requires the positive assertion of perfect knowledge. Something we mere mortals can never attain. So we made up some gods to relieve ourselves of that burden.

But, philosophically speaking, if I make the statement,''Absolute truth, truly doesn't exist'' we find this is self contradictory, as this statement would be absolute truth if true. Therefore we must accepr that there are instances of absolute truth based on objective criteria. If only we could identify them.
redace333
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redace333
130 posts
Nomad

Ok what about a new side to things what about absolute morals are some things absolutly wrong?

FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

No. Unless you believe in a deity of some sort, there cannot be absolute wrongs or rights with regards to morals.

I personally like the humanist view on morals though. Advancing the capabilities of achieving self realisation by maximising personal freedom to a point that is feasible.

LazyOne
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LazyOne
166 posts
Nomad

There is no exact truth.
one example:
You see grass as "green" right?
But!
"green" is a name given to the colour of grass (i know it's not true, but just an example)
the "green" you experience, might be your &quoturple" to someone else, but you wouldn't know, as you refer to "green" as the colour of the grass.
Get what i mean?
another example
Say....
The only person you're certain about he/she is alive, is YOURSELF
/points
Say, everyone around you is a "robot" or an "Alien"
You wouldn't know.
Really.

'Nother example?

If one could stop time, noone would notice, right?
One could stop time, live there for 5 "years"
and then continueing time again
Noone would notice.
~

redace333
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redace333
130 posts
Nomad

At LazyOne:
So you would say there are no absolute morals? It all depends on what the person thinks morals are?

Asherlee
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Asherlee
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Shepherd

Truth...or epistemology. Yea..I took that class. Let me first start of to say that I have no real opinion to contribute to this topic because I have, unfortunately read several dozens of theories on truth. Everything from deflationism to a man that detects truth through pitch. It's UNREAL. Now, I do want to post three basic theories of truth that will help continue this in the right direction.

1. The Correspondence Theory

The correspondence theory is the "default" theory of truth. It's the one most people think is obvious. According to the correspondence theory, a claim is true if it corresponds to what is so (the "facts" or "reality&quot and false if it does not correspond to what is so. Most scientists and many philosophers hold some version of the correspondence theory of truth.

Example: The statement "The opera Aida had its first performance in Cairo" is true just in case the opera Aida had its first performance in Cairo, and false otherwise. "Snow is white" is true just in case snow is white.

Problems: Is the correspondence theory itself true? If so, what does it correspond to?

How do we figure out what is so? This latter question belongs to metaphysics. A metaphysical realist will hold that the reality that "corresponds" is objective and mind-independent. An idealist may hold that it is objective yet not mind-independent.

You may think it is easy to figure out what is so. In the next Part of the class (Part 8), we will see the overwhelming psychological evidence that there is no such thing as &quoture" perception or &quoture" linguistic description. If everybody comes from somewhere, nobody has complete God-like objectivity. So some people have rejected the correspondence theory because they say we simply can't discover what is so in any "objective" way.

Think about this argument in the light of our earlier discussion of the subjective-objective distinction! (Remind me.)

(The point of our discussion was that you DON'T have to reject the correspondence theory of truth even if it's true that there's no pure perception.)





2. The Pragmatic Theory

According to the pragmatic theory, a statement is true if it allows you to interact effectively and efficiently with the cosmos. The less true a belief is, the less it facilitates such interaction. A belief is false if it facilitates no interaction. The most famous advocate of the pragmatic theory is the American philosopher William James. A contemporary adherent is Richard Rorty.

Example: My belief that inanimate objects do not spontaneously get up and move about is true because it makes my world more predictable and thus easier to live in. It "works."

Problems: Sometimes unreasonable beliefs "work". A tribe might believe that human sacrifice brings their crops back each year. The crops do come back after the human sacrifice, but not because of the human sacrifice.

The pragmatic theory of truth might invite relativism in the case of beliefs that are compatible with all states of affairs, e.g., religious beliefs. (Someone might say the belief "God exists" is true because it "works for me," i.e., it helps this person "interact more effectively with the cosmos.&quot

The notion of "more effective and efficient interaction with the cosmos" is objectionably vague.

The pragmatic theory of truth invites the notion that there are degrees of truth (some beliefs might be more effective than others), and thus invites us to reject the law of non-contradiction ("a claim is either true or false&quot.





3. The Coherence Theory

According to the coherence theory of truth, a statement is true if it is logically consistent with other beliefs that are held to be true. A belief is false if it is inconsistent with (contradicts) other beliefs that are held to be true. We should doubt claims that are currently inconsistent with the rest of our beliefs. Willard Quine is a famous contemporary philosopher who advocates the coherence theory.

Example: we don't believe in solipsism primarily because it contradicts so many of our other beliefs.

Problems: a belief can be consistent with all our other beliefs and yet have no independent supporting evidence. For example, many metaphysical beliefs are consistent with all imaginable states of affairs (e.g., "the universe came into existence five minutes ago complete with historical records and memories&quot.

Asherlee
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Asherlee
5,001 posts
Shepherd

BTW, the 3 theory summaries were meant to be in italics, because it's from another source.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

But, philosophically speaking, if I make the statement,''Absolute truth, truly doesn't exist'' we find this is self contradictory, as this statement would be absolute truth if true. Therefore we must accepr that there are instances of absolute truth based on objective criteria. If only we could identify them.
[quote] Or that's just a paradox
[/quote]

It is certainly a paradox - a variation of the liar paradox. There are some interesting ways of getting out of the paradox that we don't really need to go into here. But suffice it to say that one can accept the maxim "There are no absolute truths" without necessarily generating a paradox.

Ok what about a new side to things what about absolute morals are some things absolutly wrong?
[quote]No. Unless you believe in a deity of some sort, there cannot be absolute wrongs or rights with regards to morals.

[/quote]

I'm not comfortable with this conclusion at all. To say that morals or morality requires some deity ... well, it just doesn't follow. Kant, for example, developed a system of moral imperatives that is still manageable without God. And Mill developed utilitarianism which doesn't require the notion of a god at all.
But I guess the question you're getting at is are these moral imperatives "absolute" without having some supreme being declaring them as such? The question is tough, but we shouldn't discount any attempt to argue for moral imperatives that are strictly speaking matters of fact. I think we could develop an analogy between the fact that water is H2O and it is wrong to have sex with your own mom.

But these points aside, we haven't really gotten to the core of what it is for something to be an absolute truth. It's like asking if unicorns exist without knowing what it is to be a unicorn.
So I pose the following question: What is an absolute truth? Is it a necessary truth? I don't think so. So that leaves us with contingent truths. What is it about these truths that make them absolute?
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
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Nomad

Kant, for example, developed a system of moral imperatives that is still manageable without God.


Correct me if I'm wrong, since it has been a very long time since I read any Kant, but essentially his moral system was: 'it doesn't matter if god exists or not (probably more likely that he doesn't) but we humans should act like he does anyway to provide us with some morals'.

Even that belief relies on a deity, even if belief in that deity doesn't exist. It seems that in order to justify any universally true belief system, we need to hand over accountability to a higher power, with or without faith. That said, what I just wrote relies on whether or not my summing up of Kant's moral system is actually correct, so I guess I'll have to wait for your reply on that.

So that leaves us with contingent truths. What is it about these truths that make them absolute?


Surely, contingent truths are by their very nature, not absolute truths? Again, it's been a long time since I read anything of Leibniz, and even when I did, it was merely small exerpts, but contingent truths are only true in a certain set of conditions no? They may be absolute truths in one set of circumstances, but not in other environments.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Correct me if I'm wrong, since it has been a very long time since I read any Kant, but essentially his moral system was: 'it doesn't matter if god exists or not (probably more likely that he doesn't) but we humans should act like he does anyway to provide us with some morals'.


That's exactly right. I was trying to pick my wording carefully here, because Kant was certainly a religious man. That's why a phrased it that it is a system that is manageable without a god. Some contemporary philosophers have provided accounts that are consistent with Kant's theory that don't necessitate a belief in god. Although it does seem upon reflection that my Kant example could count both for and against what I was arguing.

It seems that in order to justify any universally true belief system, we need to hand over accountability to a higher power, with or without faith.


This is actually the line of argumentation I thought you were making, which I why I brought up Kant. For Kant, God doesn't justify these moral imperatives (at least, not how I read him). Rather, God is needed to make up for the suffering caused by doing the right thing on Earth. His thinking was, I assume, that people need some motivation beyond an act's intrinsic worth to perform that act. In fact, Kant held that the only acts that were even up for being considered "moral" were those we were duty-bound (and thus, reluctant) to do. God is supposed to be an evening out of the suffering on Earth. But I think it's fairly uncontentious that Kant wouldn't have said that God justifies these moral imperatives. They are simply necessary conditions for humanity's survival.

Surely, contingent truths are by their very nature, not absolute truths? Again, it's been a long time since I read anything of Leibniz, and even when I did, it was merely small exerpts, but contingent truths are only true in a certain set of conditions no? They may be absolute truths in one set of circumstances, but not in other environments.


It's funny you mention this, because as I was typing that out, I looked at my conclusion there and found it a bit... silly. But I think I'll stand by it for now. But certainly some explanation is in order.
Necessary truths are true in all possible worlds. So math and logic are necessary (although Quine would reject this), as are analytic truths like "All bachelors are unmarried, eligible, adult males."
But if we count absolute truth as only those truths that are necessary, I think we're missing out on a whole lot of "truth" out there. I'm sitting at my computer and looking at a pack of cigarettes right now. Next to that pack is a yellow lighter. I have the belief that the lighter is yellow, and it seems for all the world like my belief is true. But it is certainly contingent (my lighter could have just as easily been red or green or whatever). It's not necessary that my lighter is yellow.
So, these are kinds of truths I was thinking about when I mentioned that contingent truths reach toward the "absolute truth" - whatever that is.

But when I think about a truth (I still don't know what an absolute truth is) I think of it as a statement that describes the world the way it is in fact. Necessary truths, because they are true in all possible worlds, don't tell us about our world specifically. They don't add to our overall picture of this world because they apply to every possible world.
So, my belief that my lighter is yellow will help me differentiate this world from a different possible world in which my lighter is, say, blue. But necessary truths don't have this function. I can't tell the difference between this world and any other possible world because these statements will be true in all of these.
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
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Nomad

Although it does seem upon reflection that my Kant example could count both for and against what I was arguing.


That's kind of the angle I was going for. If we accept Kant's assertion that moral actions need to be dutiful and to a degree coerced, Kant again postulates that god is the most effective means of coercing individuals to act morally. Whilst this may have been true a hundreds of years ago, I think that we can look to rationalism for a new master. If everyone in society uses their common sense, the 'best' way to behave is to clearly temper your individual desires and exercise responsibility and compassion towards others, in long term mutually beneficial relationship. Perhaps I'm being a tad naive, but I think certainly in the developed world, we are enlightened enough for this state of affairs to be achieved.

But necessary truths don't have this function. I can't tell the difference between this world and any other possible world because these statements will be true in all of these.


But surely an absolute truth is by definition, absolute. It would have to be true in all possible worlds. I think I get what you're saying about the importance of distinction, but the way I've always thought about absolute truths has rendered distinction unnecessary. To use a recent example, human rights. I was watching question time, and the issue being discussed was whether or not two Al Qaeda suspects should be deported to Pakistan where they could very well be tortured or executed. The human rights act dictates that rights are universal, which was the key argument for why they should be kept in the UK. But in Pakistan such a conception of human rights doesn't exist. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that human rights are an absolute truth as far as Western liberal democracies are concerned, but not as far as non liberal democracies are concerned. So if you accept universal human rights acts as being absolute truths, you also have to accept that it is distinguishable from other 'worlds' or in this case countries.

I hope I explained that the way I was thinking it in my head, and didn't get too bogged down with the analogy. Apologies in advance if this is the case.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
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Duke

If everyone in society uses their common sense, the 'best' way to behave is to clearly temper your individual desires and exercise responsibility and compassion towards others, in long term mutually beneficial relationship. Perhaps I'm being a tad naive, but I think certainly in the developed world, we are enlightened enough for this state of affairs to be achieved.


I really and truly believe you're right and I hope with all my heart that society will reach this point. I'm not sure that people are smart enough, on the whole, to actually abide by this. But man, if we ever did get there, I really think we'd be one step closer to a utopia.

I hope I explained that the way I was thinking it in my head, and didn't get too bogged down with the analogy.


I understand now what you're saying, and I realize now we've just been talking past one another. I know that I'm not sure what "absolute" means in this context, and I'm not sure what you mean by it now, either. What I'm about to say, I'm afraid, is going to sound like me trying to turn your words against you. This isn't the case at all. I just want to get at specifically what either of us must mean by absolute.

So, when you say:
"But surely an absolute truth is by definition, absolute. It would have to be true in all possible worlds."

This sounds like your claiming a synonymy between the terms "absolute" and "necessary". In other words, the set of absolute truths is coextensive with the set of necessary truths.
My feeling here is that something like "This pen is red" could be an absolute truth if it matches up with the way things "really are" - whatever that means. But I'm getting sidetracked.
So it seems like you want to say that absolute truths are just those truths which are necessary, and true in every possible world. Seems reasonable. But the example you give of human rights isn't a necessary truth across all possible worlds. At least, not logically. Certainly we can conceive of worlds where humanoids have evolved and developed in a significantly different way than on this world and so the concept of human rights (as we view them) isn't applicable.
Maybe I'm getting bogged down here because this is supposed to be an absolute moral truth. Can you give an example of an absolute physical truth? Or are there such things on your view?
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