Put simply, the Watchmaker Argument is that something complex has a designer. In the comparing case, a watch. The watch is complex, and thus has a creator. Like this, an entire being or even just a single body part of the being is complex, and thus needs a creator. That is where religions come in, claiming that life as we know it is complex and thus was designed. However, some argue on the case of evolution and natural selection. If all complex is designed, who designed the designer? This side believes that natural adaptations over millions of years is simpler than the ideal of a designer.
I myself bend towards the second point, as natural selection itself is simpler than design.
AHHHH circular logic impossibility! You know, i think this may be one of the things that the human mind may never be able to fully comprehend
Since it's not requiring itself to answer itself it's not circular logic. As you can see from my post I was able to comprehend the concept but because of the requirements to becomes an unlikely scenario. When I took the idea and reversed it, we ended up with not only a workable concept but one that matches our current observations.
Just one thought comes to mind on any subject regarding evolution.
Lies are abundant, but there is only one truth.
Now lets see... how many theories of creationism do we have? Hundreds? Perhaps thousands?
How many theories of evolution do we have? One.
Granted we do not no for sure, but I'm more apt to go with the story that explain things without telling me some guy did all this in a week and a star was born simply because he said something.
Wow MageGrayWolf I am your biggest fan! You achieved to make a simple explanation rebating the Watchmaker theory! I am seeing much win in this thread guys, keep it up! @ whyismynametom: That way of deducing things is called silogism (that word coming from si, "if" and logos, "knowledge" and can sometimes be right and have sense. However, this is sometimes forgotten as it's the easiest way to come up with absurd things. @Gradient: Your reverse logic looks more like an argument against how relligions have been set up and their theories about what God is (i.e. not a creator of anything), at least to me.
Now lets see... how many theories of creationism do we have? Hundreds? Perhaps thousands?
How many theories of evolution do we have? One.
Both wrong. There are hundreds of religions, but many are syncretic or have the same core of belief, so there are only a dozen creationist theories. Also, there are more than one evolutionary lines that are contested (it's true that humans come from monkeys, but where do monkeys come from? It's unknown whether if from rodents or canines).
There could be a really cool twist here: the watchmaker is so damn complex he was able to create himself!
And if you think that's far-fetched, then you have no right to call yourself an Atheist. I mean seriously, the Big Bang theory is mainly that before the bang there was nothing in the universe because there was no PLACE IN WHICH TIME COULD FLOW, and that THE UNIVERSE MADE ITS OWN TIME BY SIMPLY EXISTING. Param param pam pam.
Still, there's the joke: If I'm wrong, I'll be dead surprised. If I'm right, I'll be dead.
There could be a really cool twist here: the watchmaker is so **** complex he was able to create himself!
And if you think that's far-fetched, then you have no right to call yourself an Atheist.[quote]
The watch and the watch-maker is already shown to be a poor analogy for the development of life. And we know that man made watches yet we don't see people making themselves. Unless ofcourse, you suggest that there is a civilization of gods in heaven breeding or something, and they evolved after being created by a god god...
I mean seriously, the Big Bang theory is mainly that before the bang there was nothing in the universe because there was no PLACE IN WHICH TIME COULD FLOW, and that THE UNIVERSE MADE ITS OWN TIME BY SIMPLY EXISTING. Param param pam pam.[quote]
Time is a strange subject to say the least. Can you say that time exists if there was nothing to observe it? If there was nothing to observe it, how would you confirm that time isn't there. Time is already shown to be distorted by the presence of mass is calculations and in space, so it's no surprise that scientists would think that time couldn't exist without mass, or space.
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Besides, many scientific theories before our time were considered far-fetched as you say. And yet with enough evidence, they become widely accepted. I will continue to think that the idea of a self making god as far-fetched until I see evidence for it.
Both wrong. There are hundreds of religions, but many are syncretic or have the same core of belief, so there are only a dozen creationist theories.
There are over 10,000 religions, some holding thousands of denominations.
(it's true that humans come from monkeys, but where do monkeys come from? It's unknown whether if from rodents or canines).
No we didn't come from monkeys, like chimps we had a common ancestor. Also rodents and canines sit on different evolutionary branches. So the question isn't are we descended from them, but what are we closer related to.
I mean seriously, the Big Bang theory is mainly that before the bang there was nothing in the universe because there was no PLACE IN WHICH TIME COULD FLOW, and that THE UNIVERSE MADE ITS OWN TIME BY SIMPLY EXISTING.
"Before" the Big Bang there was no universe. Space and time are essentially the same thing. Also the Big Bang theory covers how the universe began, not really what was "before" it. So a nothingness "before" it isn't it's main focus.
No we didn't come from monkeys, like chimps we had a common ancestor. Also rodents and canines sit on different evolutionary branches. So the question isn't are we descended from them, but what are we closer related to.
Yes we did come from monkeys. I mean, we came from primates, and primates came from monkeys, and monkeys seem to have come from a specie that looked like a squirrel.
"Before" the Big Bang there was no universe. Also the Big Bang theory covers how the universe began, not really what was "before" it. So a nothingness "before" it isn't it's main focus.
1. If there was no universe before, what made the "leap" afterwards? 2. The "before" stuff is much more interesting to find out.
TBH, my opinion is that this universe appeared inside another bigger universe, and in this bigger universe the laws of physics are so screwed up there's an easy explanation for why it existed forever.
Yes we did come from monkeys. I mean, we came from primates, and primates came from monkeys, and monkeys seem to have come from a specie that looked like a squirrel.
No, humans and monkeys share the same common ancestor, we came from that ancestor, not monkeys, they are on a separate branch on the evolutionary tree.
You got it mixed up also, monkeys are primates, as are humans, primates were not derived from monkeys.
I would put something better here about that, but I'm having gastric distress along with a headache.
Yes we did come from monkeys. I mean, we came from primates, and primates came from monkeys, and monkeys seem to have come from a specie that looked like a squirrel.
See pHacon's post.
1. If there was no universe before, what made the "leap" afterwards?
A singularity.
2. The "before" stuff is much more interesting to find out.
I some ways perhaps, but that still doesn't mean the Big Bang theory primarily focuses on the "before"
Think about it like a cooking recipe. It doesn't talk about where the ingredients come from, just how to put them together and cook it.
There could be a really cool twist here: the watchmaker is so **** complex he was able to create himself!
There are three types of entities recognized in the philosophical literature:
Dependent beings - those entities such as ourselves that need some kind of creator.
Independent beings - a being (presumably a God, though not necessarily) that rely on nothing for their existence.
Self-Created beings - something that can somehow create itself. Not only is this concept incoherent, but it is logically impossible. So, no, the watchmaker can't create itself. It has to be an Independent being (relative to the watches).
And if you think that's far-fetched, then you have no right to call yourself an Atheist. I mean seriously, the Big Bang theory is mainly that before the bang there was nothing in the universe because there was no PLACE IN WHICH TIME COULD FLOW, and that THE UNIVERSE MADE ITS OWN TIME BY SIMPLY EXISTING. Param param pam pam.
Yeah, that's not what the Bing Bang theory says. At all. In all seriousness, I wouldn't explain it that way to my 9-year old son. Mostly because it's just wrong, but also because it's a completely idiotic way of looking at any type of creation. Even spontaneous generation, one of the absolute duds of biological theories, had more going for it that what you're proposing here.
Get an understanding of what you're talking about, because all I'm seeing from you are nonsense posts full of misinformation.
Space is treated as a three dimensional construct with time playing the role of a fourth dimension.
Which is completely oftopicly why I think time travel into the past is impossible. Space is a constant.
If we look at the sine wave [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave] we see a point where the whole thing is essentially nothing i.e. at the middle. perhaps this is the singularity and of course the furthemost point would be the breaking point before collapse. and so we have a cycle of a universe that essentially recreates itself. Perhaps this is the "god" people are searching for that is and always has been.
I really think the watchmaker argument is very redundant. Its pretty clear life evolves, either by force or all by itself. The real question is, is there a god? and if not, what is this "thing" we live in. No wonder there are so many posts about religion.
this watchmaker argument is just one in a list of ridiculus arguments that try to proof gods existance in general you can use the logic of a "god Proof" to everything else here an example : every person is virtuous some are more virtuous than others that preson that is most virtuous we call god.....
every person smells some persons smell worse than others that person that smells worst we call god
