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Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

That's right folks, Proposition 8 - the ban on Gay marriage in California has been Overturned by a federal judge today:

Here's the Link

So - this could have potentially nationwide ramifications for Gay marriage and the banning thereof.

What are your views on the overturning? Do you think this could affect the rules on Gay marriage throughout the USA? Is this the breakdown of society and the coming of the end?

Personally - I think this is one of the best things that could ever have happened in California and it's effects on the whole of the USA could change the country forever.

  • 98 Replies
T3hLemming
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T3hLemming
195 posts
Nomad

The point is there's just too much of lifestyles choices that will allow many groups to demand special rights, so that's why the legal door is shut to this, and why Prop 8 will be reversed again.


Your logic is flawed on several points, the biggest being referring to homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. It's not, it truly is genetic and there is nothing people can do to change it. Comparing obesity and homosexuality just isn't possible. Not to mention the fact that some obesity is natural as well, so technically all obesity isn't a lifestyle choice either. But that's beside the point. If you're looking for something to compare gay rights with, compare it with women's rights, or racial equality. They are on the same level, natural occurrences where choice is not involved. Giving rights to those who are homosexual is just the natural progression of things. It needs to happen, and it will happen, despite the general stupidity holding it back. The newer generations are becoming more and more open minded to such things, so even if we can't get it done, our future children or grandchildren will be able to.

As far as Prop 8 being overturned, I think it's an excellent first step, and I'm very glad it happened. Restores some of my faith in humanity. Not much, but some.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Your logic is flawed on several points, the biggest being referring to homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. It's not, it truly is genetic and there is nothing people can do to change it.


I honestly am tired of hearing this. I personally refuse to believe that homosexuality is purely genetic. However, as I said in an earlier post, it shouldn't really matter if it's genetic or not. The whole genetic argument shouldn't determine if homosexuality is right or wrong.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

Well in most churches there are cases of homosexuals confessing their sins and giving their lives to Christ. And these people go on to marry have kids like any normal Christians. It's true!


I'm going to go back to this because for yielee this is perhaps the root of his psychotic, inhumane and degrading views on those who are homosexual.

Allow me to make a point as someone who lives in a country where it is perfectly legal to get married whether you are gay or not (Canada). There are churches where priests, pastors, reverends and what not marry a gay couple. They are not legally bound to do this. If a church does not wish to marry the couple then so be it the government cannot force them to. However, there are several churches which allow this because these Christians, these people understand and respect the rights of the individuals. They understand that all humans have the right to freedom. The right to do what they wish so long as it does not harm others.

The way you would have things harm others. You would force a man or woman to choose whether or not they would be accepted. You would force these people to live lies and to hurt every day of their lives knowing that happiness is denied to them because of people like you. What the cause of homosexuallity is unimportant, I do not give a flying f*** what it is. The point is that it exists. The point is regardless of what someone's sexual orientation is they are still a HUMAN BEING and ALL human beings deserve the right to be happy. All human beings deserve the right to be free and to love and to be loved.

You sir sicken me. You should be ashamed that you would condemn someone for who they are, you are a bigot and no better than those who believe in racism or any other form of discrimination against other human beings.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I honestly am tired of hearing this. I personally refuse to believe that homosexuality is purely genetic. However, as I said in an earlier post, it shouldn't really matter if it's genetic or not. The whole genetic argument shouldn't determine if homosexuality is right or wrong.


It's more on how the genes are expressed then the genetic makeup itself. But anyway I agree with you the argument on weather it's genetic or not shouldn't matter in granting a person equal rights.

The point of gays trying to get it dependent on genetics is to raise up this lifestyle choice to the level of skin color. Then there's no problem with making laws to give them special rights, since skin color is already protected.


It's already been mentioned how off this is on special treatment or even the comparisons your using. But again let's play devils advocate here and say it is a person choice.

Your Christian right yielee? Of course holding the religion you do is a personal choice. What if you lived in a world that was 90% atheist rather then theist., and someone passed a law saying you couldn't get married to another person you loved just because they also believed in God? As such you wouldn't be able to get many of the legal benefits that came with such a union. Would you consider it would be right to deny you and your partner equal rights to get married based solely on your person choices?
sickcroon
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sickcroon
151 posts
Nomad

I still fail to see one legitimate reason why this is an issue. I've read through this forum and I have not seen one actual complaint on how this is going to really effect anyone that is not homosexual. The only people I see complaining is people who's religion is suppose to be based on love and understanding. Which this event I find contradicting to there own beliefs. I have read the bible front to back many times in both my catholic and baptist childhood, and I don't find anywhere at all where it states that we should treat any other human being with anything other than compassion and understanding. I feel great shame for any god loving christian who feels its there personal duty to go against gods will and fill themselves with hate towards any other group of people. I may not be a follower of the holy bible, but I can say I believe in what it stands for. That no matter what our beliefs are or how different we are from one another, we are all people, and as people, we all conserve the equal right to live how we wish, and we will be judged based on how we choose to live the lives we where given, in the end, not by others, but by god himself.
Maybe it's a sin to be homosexual. And maybe God is going to send those sinners to hell. But that's between them and god and not for you or anybody else to judge.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

That's because there are no legitimate reasons to be against homosexual marriage.

BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
1,360 posts
Nomad

yielee is such a fargis..

Why must there be debate on this xD
It's clearly a positive change.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Meh - you say fargis I say Fundie.

I just wish that yielee would come up with some actual reason for support of their position rather than using the Bible, pseudoscience and other miscellaneous bullcrappery.

yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

@MRWalker82,


You might want to read the report. It states that LESS THAN ONE IN THREE OF THOSE STUDIED WERE VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE



There's no single gene that has caused Gayness, but they have a single environmental cause called kids being abused that's found in 30$% to 40%. You know that abuse is a cycle that gets passed from one generation to the next. So if you got two gay couples and there adopting kids that makes 4 gay men. If there's a 1 in 3 chance that they got abused as a kid, then they'll abuse the adopted kid as well. That means 1 out of 2 gay couples will abuse kids according to those studies.

Sooo... how you explain the other 68%


As I said before, this is just one experience that makes sexual orientation. But it's the most serious since it has the worse effects. I listed other differences between people who are in homosexual vs. heterosexual marriages, having to do with other childhood experiences.

"Also, this wasn't a study of true homosexuals, only men who engaged in sex with other men. I found nothing which showed if that was their preference, if they were bisexual, or the acts were the result of experimentation.


That's just ignorant. This was a review on 3 separate studies wanting to figure out the social roots of homosexuality as opposed to genetic causes.

@314d1,
Basically they pretend there not homosexual. Woopdy doo. Now you just need to get people pretend to stop having cancer, and everything will be "cured"!


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your just wishing stuff to happen and ignoring real people that made the change of their sexual orientation, and they all know that sexual orientation is a choice and temporary and it's all based on your experience, like thousands of testimonials. What do they have to gain by telling lies? Nothing.

Homosexuality does NOT HARM OTHERS in any way, and the homosexuals Can't TRULY CHANGE.


Your telling lies, and this is the truth, you CAN TRULY CHANGE orientation - THOUSANDS OF TESTIMONIES:

Former Lesbian
WE CHANGED OUR ORIENTATION!
Men's testimonies
Women's testimonies
Spouses testimonies
Was homosexual now heterosexual.
Women who used to be homosexual
People who have reoriented their sexual attration.

Secret Diaries - Being Gay is a conscious choice



@Avorne,

I just wish that yielee would come up with some actual reason for support of their position rather than using the Bible, pseudoscience and other miscellaneous bullcrappery.


It's called scientifc facts from articles, and testimonials. You guys just blab with nothing to back up your opinion and call me bad names when I'm putting sources to mine. Even if you hate my position and thought you had all the answers, guess what? I won and you guys lost, cause you have nothing to back up anything you said, .

@BlackVortex,

fundis?


Don't call me names, you don't even know me. I spent time to find real science articles to back my opinions up, so your calling science fundis as well. That doesn't make sense, so stop already, cause I'm just saying the facts as written.

@MGM,

What if you lived in a world that was 90% atheist rather then theist., and someone passed a law saying you couldn't get married to another person you loved just because they also believed in God?


The difference is that there's bisexuals. They want to marry a man and a woman. Are you gonna discriminate against that? If not then you just have to allow heterosexuals to marry lots of people too. What about unisexuals? They want to marry thereselves. And what about asexuals. They don't want to get married to anyone, and still want benefits of being married. Doesn't marriage discriminate against single people? LOL! That's the difference. Stick to the real issues and not some make believe story.

That's it. I shared why I think Proposition 8 will get reversed again. Now I'm done, cause I won! Don't worry, I'll be praying for everyone to finally see the Light! Bye bye!
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Shepherd

The difference is that there's bisexuals. They want to marry a man and a woman. Are you gonna discriminate against that? If not then you just have to allow heterosexuals to marry lots of people too. What about unisexuals? They want to marry thereselves. And what about asexuals. They don't want to get married to anyone, and still want benefits of being married. Doesn't marriage discriminate against single people? LOL! That's the difference. Stick to the real issues and not some make believe story.


Sexuality =/= wanting to marry. Fallacy of equivocation.

Also, you didn't win the debate. They haven't replied yet. It doesn't end until one party concedes or quits.
Moe
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Moe
1,714 posts
Blacksmith

Your telling lies, and this is the truth, you CAN TRULY CHANGE orientation - THOUSANDS OF TESTIMONIES:


This says that it is rare, if not impossible, and explains your stories.
BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
1,360 posts
Nomad

Don't call me names, you don't even know me. I spent time to find real science articles to back my opinions up, so your calling science fundis as well. That doesn't make sense, so stop already, cause I'm just saying the facts as written.


No, so far all I've seen from you is links to 'I was gay now I'm heterosexual'
Just many different versions of it.
I don't care if it's genetic or you just feel like banging the same sex over the opposite.

Stop beating around the bush and tell us what the problem with homosexuality, and homosexual marriage is.

If you can't give any reason, then your whole argument just crumbles away into dust and floats across churches, in which gays are getting happily married laughing at the yielee's all over the world
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

So yie - the hundreds of thousands of gay couples that are persecuted by bigoted asshats like you each year around the globe and in some countries even get stoned to death if found out as gay - they're just making a choice to be gay and not y'know really gay not outta choice.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

LOL! That's the difference. Stick to the real issues and not some make believe story.


You claimed it to be a choice. I showed how just because it's a choice shouldn't matter. As alt pointed out your comparison is a complete fallacy. Now please stop showing how closed minded and full of $%&^ you are.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

There's no single gene that has caused Gayness, but they have a single environmental cause called kids being abused that's found in 30$% to 40%. You know that abuse is a cycle that gets passed from one generation to the next. So if you got two gay couples and there adopting kids that makes 4 gay men. If there's a 1 in 3 chance that they got abused as a kid, then they'll abuse the adopted kid as well. That means 1 out of 2 gay couples will abuse kids according to those studies.


Not only is this completely incorrect, but it truly shows just how ignorant you are.

Firstly, as was shown in one of the studies I linked to we know that there IS A SINGLE GENE WHICH CONTROLS SEXUAL PREFERENCE. Researchers isolated it in fruit flies 15 years ago. As part of the human genome project we are in the process of identifying it specifically in humans.

Secondly, abuse is NOT a 'single environmental cause' as you put it. Sexual abuse alone does not equate to altered sexual preference. Obviously there are some environmental issues which play into sexuality, but often this is learned behavior which may even be at odds with the person's natural instincts.

And your 'statistics' make no sense at all and are NOT grounded in any factual evidence. In fact, repeated studies have shown that same sex couples are no more likely than opposite sex couples to abuse or neglect children, and are no more likely to raise children who grow to have a preference for same sex partners.

It's called scientifc facts from articles, and testimonials.


Actually testimonials are NOT scientific facts, nor do I credit the fact that all of these articles are from religious sites promoting their brand of bigotry. If you want science then go back and look at the links I posted for you to review that show that sexual preference depends very heavily on biological, not environmental, influences.

You post links to a few people who have told their christian leaders that they are 'cured'. Forgive me if I don't find any science at all in that. There is no pre/post conversion study done, no unbiased and independently verifiable testing, no peer review, and no control. There is someone's word and that is supposed to be taken as evidence? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. That is not science, that is opinion presented as fact.
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