Is Atheism a religion? - Armor Games Community

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314d1

3,817 posts

Nomad

Posted September 6, '10 11:55pm UTC

btw, i agree, we need to agree on a definition of religion, ofcourse i submit that dictionary.com should hold the title of most reputable. but maybe theres a way we can vote on it. maybe we have to start a new thread.

You obviously don't know what he is talking about...

You are using different parts of the same definition. For example, lets say your driving teacher said "Follow the signs". He probably meant

5.
a notice, bearing a name, direction, warning, or advertisement, that is displayed or posted for public view: a traffic sign; a store sign.

Witch is typical for driving, correct? But doing what your doing, you could use this definition:

13.
Usually, signs. traces, as footprints, of a wild animal.

Witch of course, makes since as a sentence, but not in the context he had.

Now, the context we are using is

1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

not number six, witch you are using. Do you see now?

[quote]btw, i agree, we need to agree on a definition of religion, ofcourse i submit that dictionary.com should hold the title of most reputable. but maybe theres a way we can vote on it. maybe we have to start a new thread.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou obviously don't know what he is talking about...\r\n\r\nYou are using different parts of the same definition. For example, lets say your driving teacher said "Follow the signs". He probably meant\r\n\r\n5.\r\na notice, bearing a name, direction, warning, or advertisement, that is displayed or posted for public view: a traffic sign; a store sign. \r\n\r\nWitch is typical for driving, correct? But doing what your doing, you could use this definition:\r\n\r\n13.\r\nUsually, signs. traces, as footprints, of a wild animal. \r\n\r\nWitch of course, makes since as a sentence, but not in the context he had. \r\n\r\nNow, the context we are using is\r\n\r\n1.\r\na set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. \r\n\r\nnot number six, witch you are using. Do you see now?

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MRWalker82

4,005 posts

Shepherd

Posted September 7, '10 12:20am UTC

For once I agree with 314d1. He actually got what I was pointing out.

Dictionaries, reputable or no, simply list commonly accepted uses of a term, not a single definitive use. As he pointed out we both cited the same source for the definition of the term 'religion' yet used different uses of the term. This is why we need to find the most accurate definition for the purpose.

Now since we are comparing atheism to other accepted religions then we must compare apples to apples and apply the same definition that makes Christianity a religion to atheism, and when we do that, as I did in my previous post, we can clearly see that atheism is not a religion by that standard.

We cannot use multiple vague definitions of the same word to arrive at a concise conclusion. If we want a clear cut answer as to whether or not atheism is a religion we must use a clear definition of what makes accepted religions a religion. This is what I was pointing out in my post. If we take the definition I cited for 'religion':

Religion: The service and worship of God or the supernatural; the state of being religious; commitment or devotion to religious principles.

We can see that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism (of nearly every form), Judaism, Greek and Roman mythology, Egyptian mythology, Hinduism, Native American practices, Voodoo, et cetera ALL fit this definition and are also all recognized as religions BECAUSE of this definition, yet we can clearly see that Atheism DOES NOT fit this definition of religion.

It would stand to reason that if every recognized religion fits this definition, and only those practices recognized as religions fit it, that this is the most accurate and concise definition of what a religion truly is, and therefor should be the standard by which we qualify what constitutes religion.

For once I agree with 314d1. He actually got what I was pointing out. \r\n\r\nDictionaries, reputable or no, simply list commonly accepted uses of a term, not a single definitive use. As he pointed out we both cited the same source for the definition of the term 'religion' yet used different uses of the term. This is why we need to find the most accurate definition for the purpose. \r\n\r\nNow since we are comparing atheism to other accepted religions then we must compare apples to apples and apply the same definition that makes Christianity a religion to atheism, and when we do that, as I did in my previous post, we can clearly see that atheism is not a religion by that standard.\r\n\r\nWe cannot use multiple vague definitions of the same word to arrive at a concise conclusion. If we want a clear cut answer as to whether or not atheism is a religion we must use a clear definition of what makes accepted religions a religion. This is what I was pointing out in my post. If we take the definition I cited for 'religion':\r\n\r\nReligion: The service and worship of God or the supernatural; the state of being religious; commitment or devotion to religious principles.\r\n\r\nWe can see that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism (of nearly every form), Judaism, Greek and Roman mythology, Egyptian mythology, Hinduism, Native American practices, Voodoo, et cetera ALL fit this definition and are also all recognized as religions BECAUSE of this definition, yet we can clearly see that Atheism DOES NOT fit this definition of religion. \r\n\r\nIt would stand to reason that if every recognized religion fits this definition, and only those practices recognized as religions fit it, that this is the most accurate and concise definition of what a religion truly is, and therefor should be the standard by which we qualify what constitutes religion.

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Quina

56 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 12:57am UTC

Some athiets have a gathering place where they talk about how god can't exsist. Athisem is a religion, one where they don't beileve in god, and activly deny his exsistance alltogether.

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MRWalker82

4,005 posts

Shepherd

Posted September 7, '10 1:10am UTC

You are displaying your ignorance of the subject matter Quina. I suggest you research the topic at hand before you apply gross strawman fallacies to atheists and Atheism in general.

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Hypermnestra

26,390 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 1:11am UTC

Some athiets have a gathering place where they talk about how god can't exsist. Athisem is a religion, one where they don't beileve in god, and activly deny his exsistance alltogether.

Some fishermen have a gathering place where they talk about fishing. Some book lovers have a place where they talk about books. That means, by your logic, they must be religions too, right?
We do not actively deny his existence. We don't believe in him. The only reason we actually deny it in the first place is because Christians bring it up. By your logic, not believing in unicorns is actively believing in unicorns, therefore not believing in unicorns must be a unicorn-denying religion, correct?

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DoctorHouseNCIS

304 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 1:53am UTC

People, as the starter of this topic, I didn't mean for this to turn into a dictionary.com fest. One or two definitions is fine but this is meant as a opinion topic

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MRWalker82

4,005 posts

Shepherd

Posted September 7, '10 2:17am UTC

@DoctorHouseNCIS

We have to understand the meaning of the term 'religion' and accept the most accurate representation (definition) of that meaning before we can have any form of intelligent discussion as to whether or not something qualifies as a religion, hence the "dictionary.com fest", as you so eloquently put it.

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nevetsthereaper

641 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 3:23am UTC

[/b]seriously 31, if your going to quote me, get it right. i actually quoted Mr.walker on his definition of religion first, asking him where he obtained his information

Religion: The service and worship of God or the supernatural; the state of being religious; commitment or devotion to religious principles.

copying and pasting from dictionary.com isn't that hard, and also, where did you get that definition?

then i quoted dictionary.com's first definition of religion, the exact same one as yours... wierd

reÃÂ·liÃÂ·gionÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½ Ã¢ï¿½ï¿½/rÃÂªÃï¿½lÃÂªdÃ'Ãï¿½n/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
Ã¢ï¿½"noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

as previously quoted by mage or avorne, or somebody, from dictionary.com

then i quoted dictionary.com's 6th definition, saying it was the one i liked. but don't worry, i'll quote that too.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

again, people keep using that athiests don't believe in a god as a reason for not being a religion, but the definition plainly states that while a religion usually worships some kind of diety, it is NOT required.

see the space between the quote and the paragraph? it was a closing statement, actually refering to the first definition. now that its all in context for you, WHAT is the definition that we are agreeing upon here, because if we all ahve definitions that are different, its no wonder no one can agree.

[/b]seriously 31, if your going to quote me, get it right. i actually quoted Mr.walker on his definition of religion first, asking him where he obtained his information\r\n\r\n[quote][b]Religion: The service and worship of God or the supernatural; the state of being religious; commitment or devotion to religious principles.[/b]\r\n\r\ncopying and pasting from dictionary.com isn't that hard, and also, where did you get that definition?[/quote]\r\n\r\n\r\nthen i quoted dictionary.com's first definition of religion, the exact same one as yours... wierd\r\n\r\n\r\n[quote][b]reÃ�Â·liÃ�Â·gionÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½ Ã¢ï¿½ï¿½/rÃ�ÂªÃ�ï¿½lÃ�ÂªdÃ�'Ã�ï¿½n/  Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn]  Show IPA\r\nÃ¢ï¿½"noun\r\n1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. [/b]\r\n\r\nas previously quoted by mage or avorne, or somebody, from dictionary.com[/quote]\r\n\r\nthen i quoted dictionary.com's 6th definition, saying it was the one i [b]liked[/b]. but don't worry, i'll quote that too.\r\n\r\n\r\n[quote][b]6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.[/b]\r\n\r\nagain, people keep using that athiests don't believe in a god as a reason for not being a religion, but the definition plainly states that while a religion usually worships some kind of diety, it is NOT required.[/quote]\r\n\r\nsee the space between the quote and the paragraph? it was a closing statement, actually refering to the first definition. now that its all in context for you, WHAT is the definition that we are agreeing upon here, because if we all ahve definitions that are different, its no wonder no one can agree.

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 6:51am UTC

Some athiets have a gathering place where they talk about how god can't exsist. Athisem is a religion, one where they don't beileve in god, and activly deny his exsistance alltogether.

A. It's spelt 'Atheist' not 'athiets'.
B. Since when did we have a gathering place to discuss anything? We might turn up at a debate club or something but that's 1. Only a small number of Atheists and 2. Independent of each other.
3. Since religion is an 'added extra' for people - Atheism is the default stance. We don't actively deny anything - we simply point out the flaws and sheer unbelievability of the idea of a giant, floating guy on a cloud. If we were presented with solid, provable and reliable evidence for a God then we'd be happy to convert.

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AndyDGS

91 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 7:40am UTC

Well atheism is for those who doesn't believe there IS God,
otherwise, religion is for those who believe in God or something else.

So atheism is not a religion at all. Atheists don't have a god to believe in, don't have a creature to believe in, they only have a mention that there is no God at all.

That's not a religion.

P.S.: sry, I did not have read the whole thread, it's 15 pages long!

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nevetsthereaper

641 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 7:44am UTC

not even going to say how bad you missed the mark on that one andy. read the definition that the atheists provided

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted September 7, '10 8:19am UTC

Looking at dictionary.com I see atheism fits non of the definitions offered.

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

It's already been pointed out that atheism does not fit this definition. Atheism doesn't offer a set of beliefs concerning the cause nature and purpose of the universe. It doesn't involve devotional and ritual observance, or moral code. And by definition lacks the belief in a superhuman agency or agencies.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

Atheism is the lack of belief not belief. It holds no practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons and has no sects.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

Again atheism is the lack of belief and has no particular practices.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.

I'm not sure if this definition even fits religion, this is more about being part of a religion then being religion itself. An atheist can still be an atheist and be part of a religion that has no deities, but that doesn't make atheism the religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

Again atheism the lack of belief, most atheists don't hold faith.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

The one that has been waved around here. But again, atheism is the lack of belief and most do not hold devotedly to atheism. Atheism holds no points of ethics or conscience.

7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.

There are no rituals in atheism.

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion

As pointed out above most atheists don't hold faithfully or have devotion to atheism.

9. get religion, Informal.
a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways

being this is an informal use of the term it really doesn't hold validity in this context.
But A. many atheists don't hold a deep conviction to the validity of religious practices.
B. I would suppose man atheists might hold to mending errant ways based on reason, but this would only indicate reason as a religion in an informal manner rather then atheism. With atheism in this case simply being a product of that reasoning.

So no matter what definition you use from dictionary.com atheism doesn't fit as a religion.

Looking at dictionary.com I see atheism fits non of the definitions offered.\r\n\r\n[quote]1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's already been pointed out that atheism does not fit this definition. Atheism doesn't offer a set of beliefs concerning the cause nature and purpose of the universe. It doesn't involve devotional and ritual observance, or moral code. And by definition lacks the belief in a superhuman agency or agencies.\r\n\r\n[quote]2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects[/quote]  \r\n\r\nAtheism is the lack of belief not belief. It holds no practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons and has no sects.\r\n\r\n[quote]3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices[/quote]\r\n\r\nAgain atheism is the lack of belief and has no particular practices.\r\n\r\n[quote]4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm not sure if this definition even fits religion, this is more about being part of a religion then being religion itself. An atheist can still be an atheist and be part of a religion that has no deities, but that doesn't make atheism the religion.\r\n\r\n[quote]5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.[/quote] \r\n\r\nAgain atheism the lack of belief, most atheists don't hold faith.\r\n\r\n[quote]6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience [/quote]\r\n\r\nThe one that has been waved around here. But again, atheism is the lack of belief and most do not hold devotedly to atheism. Atheism holds no points of ethics or conscience.\r\n\r\n[quote]7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.[/quote] \r\n\r\nThere are no rituals in atheism.\r\n\r\n[quote]8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion[/quote]\r\n\r\nAs pointed out above most atheists don't hold faithfully or have devotion to atheism.\r\n\r\n[quote]9. get religion, Informal.\r\na. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.\r\nb. to resolve to mend one's errant ways[/quote]\r\n\r\nbeing this is an informal use of the term it really doesn't hold validity in this context.\r\nBut A. many atheists don't hold a deep conviction to the validity of religious practices.\r\nB. I would suppose man atheists might hold to mending errant ways based on reason, but this would only indicate reason as a religion in an informal manner rather then atheism. With atheism in this case simply being a product of that reasoning.\r\n\r\nSo no matter what definition you use from dictionary.com atheism doesn't fit as a religion.

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nevetsthereaper

641 posts

Nomad

Posted September 7, '10 8:34am UTC

It's already been pointed out that atheism does not fit this definition. Atheism doesn't offer a set of beliefs concerning the cause nature and purpose of the universe. It doesn't involve devotional and ritual observance, or moral code. And by definition lacks the belief in a superhuman agency or agencies

this is where it breaks down to opinion, because to me, atheists in general have a belief that no god serves purpose because no god created or caused anything in the universe. would you say this is true? if so, then you have a set of beliefs concerning the cause , nature and purpose of the universe. and the rest in the first definiton, as i previously stated, are not required to be a religion.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted September 7, '10 8:46am UTC

this is where it breaks down to opinion, because to me, atheists in general have a belief that no god serves purpose because no god created or caused anything in the universe. would you say this is true?

As i said it's the lack of belief no belief. But even so, what does what I think didn't do it have to do with how I think it did happen? I don't believe magic invisible flying elephants farted the universe into existence and that holds about as much weight on what I think happened as "God did it".
Does this mean I also have a religion of not believing in invisible flying elephants?

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HahiHa

8,256 posts

Regent

Posted September 7, '10 8:47am UTC

this is where it breaks down to opinion, because to me, atheists in general have a belief that no god serves purpose because no god created or caused anything in the universe. would you say this is true?

No, atheists have their own, individual 'set of beliefs' to explain the world, but this hasn't any relation to atheism itself. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god. Nothing more, everything else is up to the individual person.

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