Whenever someone asks a christian why God wouldn't just show himself, he gets the same answer: it would take away free will. I'm not satisfied with such an answer, and though there have been small discussions about this in other threads here and there, I never saw an actual serious discussion thread for this, so I open one here and hope there hasn't been any in the past. I'll state my opinion now (which is not completely neutral, I assume that) and you will be able to discuss about this issue here.
Let's set aside god showing him for now and consider free will as it is. It exists only for grown up individuals; as babies we have to first assimilate knowledge and listen to what is told to us. In this stage we don't have free will since we have to rely on others to get knowledge. Now it's true that once we grow up, we have the possibility to think about our religion and eventually come to the end that it's either the right or the wrong one. But even with that thinking, we are in my opinion still too influenced by our childhood and entourage, which leads me to the point that true free will is already stunted by culture and society. Just look at Europe: a major part of religious people in western Europe are Christians, while a major part of religious people in eastern Europe are Muslims. With true free will, shouldn't it be much more mixed, in every part of the world?
Now we come to the point where we have to consider what would happen if God showed himself. Let's hypothesize God exists and he shows himself to the world. We would have to accept that there actually is a higher being. So far I'm perfectly OK with that. But it wouldn't automatically mean that everything that's written in the Bible is true only because a higher being showed up. He would first have to prove it (How he proves it is not a matter of this thread). So at first we still would have the possibility to doubt on his true identity. And even then, we have the choice to agree with him or disagree and reject his ideas, to follow him or not. So I think free will would be affected but not completely inhibited by God being there, is my point.
And just think of that: God loves us, but in the same time deprives us of proofs and by doing so exposes us to disbelief and eternal torture, just because he doesn't want to take away free will. So theoretically native populations in the rain forest of south America, who never heard of God, are doomed to go to hell, whatever they do or however good they are. D'uh?
Due to these points I can't accept free will as a valid argument, but I'm eager to correct my position as long as you can provide good reasons for it. Now, agree? Disagree? Have something to correct on one point, or something to add? Discuss!
I agree with you for the most part but I'm not sure if I would say free will is already being stunted. There's a difference between taking into account the information you are given before making your decision and having your ability to choose taken away.
Another thing to consider from the theistic perspective is in the Bible God showed himself to people all the time without this concern of it effecting their free will.
Ok, 'stunted' is a bit harsh of a word. But somehow if you grow up in a certain surrounding, the way you analize information is in itself never truly objective, you kind of have to learn how to analyze. And the way you analize things is dependent from your surrounding. So your ability to choose may not be diminished or stunted, but certainly influenced. And so it seems to me that free will is formed by your surrounding rather than by god's absence.
agree with you for the most part but I'm not sure if I would say free will is already being stunted. There's a difference between taking into account the information you are given before making your decision and having your ability to choose taken away.
Where in the Bible does God place such high importance on free will?
Let's review what this deity has done in the Bible... He frequently shows himself and interacts with us. Preforms numerous parlor tricks to prove he is who he says he is. Issues a bunch of commandments and lays down a punishment for not following them. Has directly and indirectly interfered in our life cycles (killing us) doing so in the range of the millions. Has directly and indirectly interfered in our cultural development on numerous occasions. Has directly and indirectly interfered in our development as a species on numerous occasions.
Now tell me, does this really sound like a deity who places free will on such a high pedestal that he would be concerned that giving a modern testable example of his existence would somehow effect our free will?
I'm pretty sure that an appearance of God doesn't so much take away free will, I always thought that that was the answer to why "Bad things happened" - I've never given that type of answer, nor have I ever received it.
However, if someone really was so ignorant as to give that answer, then yes, your points apply - even to the point of the stunting, although I'd say more veiling. God certainly doesn't act like he would in the Bible, and for that everyone can be thankful - we don't really have enough buildings to withstand another purging and whatnot.
I agree with the OP and mage on the issue of free will and the Christian god; however I disagree with free will being stunted. I do see your point but I feel the demographics you pointed out have more to do with being to lazy to explore other options they choose not to spend time researching other ideas.
I do see your point but I feel the demographics you pointed out have more to do with being to lazy to explore other options they choose not to spend time researching other ideas.
Not sure If I'm following you? This is primarily about the Christian God and that god's stance on free will. Given the Bible is pretty much our only source for what this god is like and what he has done I'm not seeing how what I pointed out has more to do with lack of research.
I think its called "Faith" For a reason...?
It's called faith because there is not actual evidence to back up the claims, but that's for another topic.
To add to what has already been said, how would it effect free will? Apparently in Biblical times he effected the lives of the people on a daily bases. He forced them into the desert were he would let them live and kill them, at his pleasure, giving them food and water, most of the time Enoch to kill them, and eventually fought with them in battle, or let them die. He effected everything about there lives, without even worrying about free will, why is it different now?
Next, is the "free will" of the Biblical god actually free will? The first fact is that "we are all part of his plan" or something to that effect. Last I checked, if you are only a chess piece you don't have free will. You could do whatever you want, but it is automatically what he wants you to do.
Last, its still not much a choice. "Give me the money, or I will blow your head off! But its your free choice, you know." or "Feel free not to pay your taxes, but if you don't you will go to prison.Forever."...Live on your knees or die on your feet.
The idea of free will depends on what Sociology camp you fall into. If you believe that Humans shape/control society then your free will remains mostly unobstructed by things. However, if you believe that society shapes and controls the person - setting 'norms' and values for that person, socializing them and creating social control to reward or punish them - Free Will suddenly seems a lot less 'free'.
So the destruction of the Tower of Babel and diaspora of the peoples of Earth was an example of the showing of free will?
The flood that killed everything on Earth except those on Noah's Ark?
So much for that idea.
But I do agree with you that, children are highly impressionable and growing up in religious families can lead to a strong belief in God, however there are others who grew up the same way and naturally stopped believing. I suppose it just depends on how you look at life.
I actually agree with most of the OP, and I even agree that free will is being stunted. We have many religions who indoctrinate their children from extremely young ages and teach them dogmatic principles which interfere with their capacity for logical and critical thinking skills in later life, and often are at great odds with the facts about our universe. This impedes them from being able to make informed decisions and, as Richard Dawkins said, is tantamount to child abuse.
