Whenever someone asks a christian why God wouldn't just show himself, he gets the same answer: it would take away free will. I'm not satisfied with such an answer, and though there have been small discussions about this in other threads here and there, I never saw an actual serious discussion thread for this, so I open one here and hope there hasn't been any in the past. I'll state my opinion now (which is not completely neutral, I assume that) and you will be able to discuss about this issue here.
Let's set aside god showing him for now and consider free will as it is. It exists only for grown up individuals; as babies we have to first assimilate knowledge and listen to what is told to us. In this stage we don't have free will since we have to rely on others to get knowledge. Now it's true that once we grow up, we have the possibility to think about our religion and eventually come to the end that it's either the right or the wrong one. But even with that thinking, we are in my opinion still too influenced by our childhood and entourage, which leads me to the point that true free will is already stunted by culture and society. Just look at Europe: a major part of religious people in western Europe are Christians, while a major part of religious people in eastern Europe are Muslims. With true free will, shouldn't it be much more mixed, in every part of the world?
Now we come to the point where we have to consider what would happen if God showed himself. Let's hypothesize God exists and he shows himself to the world. We would have to accept that there actually is a higher being. So far I'm perfectly OK with that. But it wouldn't automatically mean that everything that's written in the Bible is true only because a higher being showed up. He would first have to prove it (How he proves it is not a matter of this thread). So at first we still would have the possibility to doubt on his true identity. And even then, we have the choice to agree with him or disagree and reject his ideas, to follow him or not. So I think free will would be affected but not completely inhibited by God being there, is my point.
And just think of that: God loves us, but in the same time deprives us of proofs and by doing so exposes us to disbelief and eternal torture, just because he doesn't want to take away free will. So theoretically native populations in the rain forest of south America, who never heard of God, are doomed to go to hell, whatever they do or however good they are. D'uh?
Due to these points I can't accept free will as a valid argument, but I'm eager to correct my position as long as you can provide good reasons for it. Now, agree? Disagree? Have something to correct on one point, or something to add? Discuss!
I do see your point but I feel the demographics you pointed out have more to do with being to lazy to explore other options they choose not to spend time researching other ideas.
Do you mean that they don't lack the ability to make their own decisions, but that they simply don't want to and stick with the belief that they were given and accept it as their own truth? If yes, you may be right, this thought crossed my mind while I was writing the OP. Or maybe they don't dare to change their belief, since they may be cast out.
I do see your point but I feel the demographics you pointed out have more to do with being to lazy to explore other options they choose not to spend time researching other ideas.
Not sure If I'm following you?
I believe that what samy is trying to say is: The populace mentioned lacks the motivation to employ introspection and thus follows the crowd.
Ok, so basically most of you agree.. what I still wonder about is why do christians even use the argument of free will that often? How many really believe in that, and how many are using it as a hypocritical argument against god showing? Do they simply not think far enough? Or, as I often think, would it somehow demystify god to most christians should he actually show up?
We have many religions who indoctrinate their children from extremely young ages and teach them dogmatic principles which interfere with their capacity for logical and critical thinking skills in later life, and often are at great odds with the facts about our universe. This impedes them from being able to make informed decisions and, as Richard Dawkins said, is tantamount to child abuse.
Sadly this is true, some are virtually breeding new followers. But by far not everyone is doing so, and I hope that someday we will be able to eradicate such practises. The question is how :S
Actually I'm not quoting a nonexistent person, it is an incomplete quote from Dr. Richard Dawkins. If you are unfamiliar with him I highly recommend you do some research.
Not sure If I'm following you? This is primarily about the Christian God and that god's stance on free will. Given the Bible is pretty much our only source for what this god is like and what he has done I'm not seeing how what I pointed out has more to do with lack of research.
I think he is stating that its the child's fault for not looking into it, if I read him correctly.
That's the one. I blame the individual for not spending the time to exercise his or her free will not the society they were raised in.
Dr. Richard Dawkins. If you are unfamiliar with him I highly recommend you do some research.
Can't stand the man, seems like there are more important things than telling content, and generally good, people that they're wrong. Just seems like a wasted life.
Can't stand the man, seems like there are more important things than telling content, and generally good, people that they're wrong. Just seems like a wasted life.
Actually it is part of his job, but I can see your reasoning. However if I were blissfully ignorant to the facts I would much rather be educated so that I understood reality, but that's just me. I'm sure many people out there would prefer to be ignorant of reality if it didn't give them the warm fuzzies that their particular dogma gave them.
However if I were blissfully ignorant to the facts I would much rather be educated so that I understood reality,
Actually tying this back into the thread I feel like the majority of people who aren't completely ignorant will search out information by themselves by using there own freewill.
I'm sure many people out there would prefer to be ignorant of reality if it didn't give them the warm fuzzies that their particular dogma gave them.
Couple billion, as long as they aren't directly affecting me I'm absolutely fine with them being religious.
Can't stand the man, seems like there are more important things than telling content, and generally good, people that they're wrong. Just seems like a wasted life.
Its what I do in my spare time....
You do realize these people have a huge sway in voting, correct? They sway the law. They sway the research. They sway the culture. Hell, religion effects atheists like me in our daily life.
They may get the "warm fuzzes" from it, but the same can be said for other imaginary friends. They may provide false comfort and defense from false things like monsters, but in reality they do nothing. If someone I knew still had an imaginary friend into there teens, I would tell them there wrong, no matter how content and happy they are.
You do realize these people have a huge sway in voting, correct? They sway the law. They sway the research. They sway the culture. Hell, religion effects atheists like me in our daily life.
Unfortunatly,or fortunately, they have the right to do so due to freewill and a free country.
They may provide false comfort and defense from false things like monsters, but in reality they do nothing.
The belief in a god can cause many, many positive things. Take for instance Wajor (a member for those that don't know) before she came to believe in god her life was, oh lets just say bad. After some time though her quality of life improved due to, I think, two things.
1) The belief in an all loving creature provides the needed aspect of love to many individuals.
2)Returning once again to love the aspect of community in the church provides love.
Plain and simple you want to remove religion from the world? Serve others and be their friend, show them love and they wont need to turn to religion to get it.
Unfortunatly,or fortunately, they have the right to do so due to freewill and a free country.
But when a few priest can say "STONE DA FAGS!" and have a few million followers start hating homosexuals, you have a problem.
The belief in a god can cause many, many positive things. Take for instance Wajor (a member for those that don't know) before she came to believe in god her life was, oh lets just say bad. After some time though her quality of life improved due to, I think, two things.
And it caused many, many, many bad things. Just to name a recent one, the Burn the Kuran day/riots that go with it.
1) The belief in an all loving creature provides the needed aspect of love to many individuals.
An all loving creature, who happens to hate gays and infidels. That aside, its not needed. Sure, it can be wanted, but its not needed. Take for instance the early North/Central American religions. None of them have an all loving creature, and you and I would consider some of there god's evil, for example the Aztec. The fact that the mentioned civilizations were able to live without an ideal of an all loving creature is proof its not needed.
2)Returning once again to love the aspect of community in the church provides love.
Once again, that is not religions doing. I could return home for some loving community, or go to a nearby Secular Society if I wanted the feeling of a church. Actually, even school or work could be considered "roviding love" and giving a since of community.
Plain and simple you want to remove religion from the world? Serve others and be their friend, show them love and they wont need to turn to religion to get it.
That won't stop them. In fact, many would claim I was religious themselves, as they attempted to do with the founding fathers and pretty much everyone else they liked.
That's the one. I blame the individual for not spending the time to exercise his or her free will not the society they were raised in.
Far to often though the particular religion discourages such practices of looking into it. Another problem is if they do, they will search this information with religious tinted glasses causing them to possibly reject the truth if they find it. It's far to often that people will ignore the bad parts of their holy text or try and find excuse for them. You yourself use to do this last part.
Unfortunatly,or fortunately, they have the right to do so due to freewill and a free country.
I would say unfortunately. It's no longer my freewill when others try to regulate and legislate what I should consider moral.
It's far to often that people will ignore the bad parts of their holy text or try and find excuse for them. You yourself use to do this last part.
Fair point in the end it's what convinced me though.
But when a few priest can say "STONE DA ***S!" and have a few million followers start hating homosexuals, you have a problem.
Oh I agree completely but it's their right. How can you change that without taking away some of their freedoms? Only through a long and steady discussion ,that will take generations, can you truly change a mass of people's minds.
And it caused many, many, many bad things. Just to name a recent one, the Burn the Kuran day/riots that go with it.
Correct and excluding this instance I would stretch to argue that in today's world it tends to do more good. Still though I don't even understand why you would burn the Koran it's ridiculous.
An all loving creature, who happens to hate gays and infidels. That aside, its not needed. Sure, it can be wanted, but its not needed. Take for instance the early North/Central American religions. None of them have an all loving creature, and you and I would consider some of there god's evil, for example the Aztec.
Hey I never said they knew that he hated gays =P
Anyway maybe my post was worded awkwardly but I meant that it was the love that was needed not the all loving deity. Love from any source should do really.
Once again, that is not religions doing. I could return home for some loving community, or go to a nearby Secular Society if I wanted the feeling of a church. Actually, even school or work could be considered "roviding love" and giving a since of community.
The point is, is that in most school and work atmospheres some people will not be accepted and will be further denied love, the goal of the church community is to mimic god's love making it one of the best places to get love.
That won't stop them. In fact, many would claim I was religious themselves, as they attempted to do with the founding fathers and pretty much everyone else they liked.
Eh, I never meant on a large scale. Just around your friends, family, coworkers, everyone you come into contact with on a normal day.
Oh I agree completely but it's their right. How can you change that without taking away some of their freedoms? Only through a long and steady discussion ,that will take generations, can you truly change a mass of people's minds.
So it's a religious persons right to oppress and take away the rights of a group of people because that person is religious and it's part of their religion? It's like marxism only... not marxism.
So it's a religious persons right to oppress and take away the rights of a group of people because that person is religious and it's part of their religion?
It's they're right to that opinion yes and because this country is a democracy only the opinion of the majority can change laws. Again I'm not for it but it's a hell of a lot easier to liberalize a Christian than to deconvert them; change of goals?
