Whenever someone asks a christian why God wouldn't just show himself, he gets the same answer: it would take away free will. I'm not satisfied with such an answer, and though there have been small discussions about this in other threads here and there, I never saw an actual serious discussion thread for this, so I open one here and hope there hasn't been any in the past. I'll state my opinion now (which is not completely neutral, I assume that) and you will be able to discuss about this issue here.
Let's set aside god showing him for now and consider free will as it is. It exists only for grown up individuals; as babies we have to first assimilate knowledge and listen to what is told to us. In this stage we don't have free will since we have to rely on others to get knowledge. Now it's true that once we grow up, we have the possibility to think about our religion and eventually come to the end that it's either the right or the wrong one. But even with that thinking, we are in my opinion still too influenced by our childhood and entourage, which leads me to the point that true free will is already stunted by culture and society. Just look at Europe: a major part of religious people in western Europe are Christians, while a major part of religious people in eastern Europe are Muslims. With true free will, shouldn't it be much more mixed, in every part of the world?
Now we come to the point where we have to consider what would happen if God showed himself. Let's hypothesize God exists and he shows himself to the world. We would have to accept that there actually is a higher being. So far I'm perfectly OK with that. But it wouldn't automatically mean that everything that's written in the Bible is true only because a higher being showed up. He would first have to prove it (How he proves it is not a matter of this thread). So at first we still would have the possibility to doubt on his true identity. And even then, we have the choice to agree with him or disagree and reject his ideas, to follow him or not. So I think free will would be affected but not completely inhibited by God being there, is my point.
And just think of that: God loves us, but in the same time deprives us of proofs and by doing so exposes us to disbelief and eternal torture, just because he doesn't want to take away free will. So theoretically native populations in the rain forest of south America, who never heard of God, are doomed to go to hell, whatever they do or however good they are. D'uh?
Due to these points I can't accept free will as a valid argument, but I'm eager to correct my position as long as you can provide good reasons for it. Now, agree? Disagree? Have something to correct on one point, or something to add? Discuss!
Shouldn't the minority be protected though? The ruling group shouldn't just be able to set down the norms and values of a society and then tell everybody else to bugger off if they don't like it. I understand these things take time but it would be better to move quick than let things fester.
Because Homosexuality = nudism? One of those is not a choice and I'll give you a clue. Nudism is a choice - you can choose your clothing (or lack thereof) you can't choose your sexuality.
yet again, if this is the way it should be, then i as a nudist minority should be able to run around naked.
You can, in designated nudist camps and colonies. The issue with people expressing themselves freely is that they seem to forget that their freedom expression ends when it interferes with someone else's freedoms.
Correct and excluding this instance I would stretch to argue that in today's world it tends to do more good.
Sorry if this is off topic. How does it do more good in today's world?
The issue with people expressing themselves freely is that they seem to forget that their freedom expression ends when it interferes with someone else's freedoms.
"The right to swing your fist ends at the end of my nose."- not sure but I first heard it from a YouTuber.
Shouldn't the minority be protected though? The ruling group shouldn't just be able to set down the norms and values of a society and then tell everybody else to bugger off if they don't like it. I understand these things take time but it would be better to move quick than let things fester.
I do believe we just discovered the point of a Republic. In our country there isn't mob rule, which is a massive bonus, but people's opinions still count. We're near a tipping point in America where we can either move to a long state of progressivism or move deeper into conservatism. If the former happens our country, and freewill, will prosper; if not, well, there's always Canada.
well Mage, if it ever gets too unbearable my folks will probably sell or will me their condo in Puerto Vallarta. We can take off there
Sounds good, joining the guy on the floating island would work as well. Maybe get some of the top scientists to join us, I bet they would come in handy.
As a side note I'm currently working under the idea that mage is an entity composed entirely of YouTube videos.
