I think I found something that can top Moe's philosophical topics.
So, Armor Games. How do we know that we aren't in an afterlife right now? What if the afterlife really means continuing with your soul but still retains the spirit of living? We can take the different theories of the afterlife, heaven, hell, and purgatory for example, and translate it into:
"what if X is really Y?" X meaning said afterlife theory, and Y meaning NOW.
-- What if this is Heaven? To the end, God gave us the power of freewill. I think both ends of the religious spectrum can agree with that. What if even in the afterlife of Heaven, God still gives us freewill and we are able to venture out into wherever we want? Some of the religious believe that, in Heaven, we are able to wish upon anything and it happens. What if said transcendentals wished to be back to live on Earth? Surely, some time between death and eternity, some guys would want to go back and live out plain ol' life, right?
--What if this is Purgatory? It takes certain credos to be not qualified for Heaven, but also not qualified for Hell. So what if leaving on Earth is really a Purgatory, and that it's a "second chance" at transcending into Heaven or Hell? This is probably the one that makes the most sense; Earth is filled with a marble cake of good and evil; you get a mix of both ends of the alignment spectrum. So Purgatory can be a "reincarnation" of sorts so give us an extra 80 years of life of trying once again to transcend into Heaven or Hell.
--What if this is Hell? What if part of the endless, eternal torture that Satan has brewed up for the damned is "showing us what life is like and hopelessly trying to get back into the Lord, even though it's a folly? That can bring pain upon those that were so foolish enough to not believe in God, right? (speaking in perspective here, don't hit me!) It would bring lots of pain! So that's why Satan would want to do such a thing before bringing them back to Hell to be thoroughly tortured again. Brings a chill down your spine. How do you know if you are practicing the right faith, if you are really just a prisoner of your original faith, doomed to fall down into Hell once more after you're dead?
oooooooooh......
--What if this is just a dream? Some theorize that when you die, your last dream, most fulfilling dream, or the most precious dream contained in your brain is the dream you will live with forever when you die. Nothing more to say, is there? Everyone discussing on the forums and having their own life, your past self dreamed that before they died, so they are living it in death. Some can even go so far as to say this is a part of reincarnation--your most precious dream becomes a reality, until you die again, then THAT most precious dream becomes the second reality.
Hey, now that I think about it, that can make a pretty good story, wouldn't it?
We can discuss the finer points of the different concepts of afterlives, but right now I just want to touch on the how. How do you know that what you're experiencing is NOT the afterlife?
is an embodiment of antagonism that originates from the Abrahamic religions, being traditionally considered a "fallen" angel in Judeo-Christian belief and a Jinn in Islamic belief. Originally, the term was used as a title for various entities (humans, accusing angels, etc.) that challenged the religious faith of humans in the Hebrew Bible.[2] Since then, the Abrahamic religions have used "Satan" as a name for the Devil.[3]
So. ASSUMING the afterlives exist, and yes, souls, how do we know we are not living them now? The only thing we have been doing now is beat about the bush.
I'll grant this assumption during my responses.
As to whether this existence we're experiencing is heaven or hell:
Both of these concepts entail certain things. The fact that we can experience great joy, I think, is an indication that we're certainly not in a Christian hell. And the fact that we also experience tremendous sorry is an indication that we're not in a Christian heaven. The nature of our experiences seems to contradict our notions of heaven and hell. Now, it could be that we're just wrong about what heaven is like, but at this point what does the question amount to? It's interesting that this scenario is different from skeptical scenarios (like us being brains in vats). With skeptical scenarios, the worry is that the world isn't how we experience it, that it's radically different. But your thought experiment amounts to something different. It doesn't seem like you're suggesting that our perceptions are false, or that the world around us isn't really there. Your suggesting that the world around us simply is heaven or hell - that this is how it manifests. There are still some epistemic consequences to be had, but I'm not sure what to make of them. It seems like the proposition "I am alive" is false, but I have an objection to that. If the proposition "I am alive" is false, then I am being deceived. And since we're granting that heaven and hell exist, I'm assuming that means we can grant that God exists. Using Descartes' method of reconstructing his beliefs, we can say with certainty that we're not in heaven. If we were, we would know, because God is not a deceiver. So that leaves open the option that we're in hell. But under a Christian conception of faith, I don't think that's possible either. Consider the number of people who are in hell here with us who go to church. I think it was Leibniz who said something like even the demons and devils believe in God. They simply don't act on that belief. Yet there is ample evidence of people doing God's work in our lives. If that volitional response to belief is lacking in hell, then this simply isn't hell.
As to the dreaming argument, I've just never been a fan. There is a state of being that we recognize as dreaming. And dreams lack the consistency and temporal succession we experience when we're awake. Now, you might suggest that what we experience is a dream within a dream. My objection here is that it simply isn't - at least not on our understanding of what a dream is. We may be in some long-induced state of seeming to perceive and interact long-term with an external world, but this isn't dreaming. It's something else entirely.
It's estimated that 9 to 18 percent of people who are near death have a near-death experience. These experiences are evidence of an afterlife. If there is evidence of an (other) afterlife this life cannot be considered an afterlife. Therefore what we are experiencing is not the afterlife.
I have a problem with premise 2: These experiences are evidence of an afterlife. While near death experiences may be evidence of an afterlife to some, it is far, far from the conclusive evidence you need to motive the conclusion (and premise 3). I also worry that the argument begs the question, by assuming that we're not already in some afterlife scenario in the first premise.
Pretty in-depth replies to my scenarios, Moe! Of course, we should expect no less, right?
So that leaves open the option that we're in hell. But under a Christian conception of faith, I don't think that's possible either. Consider the number of people who are in hell here with us who go to church. I think it was Leibniz who said something like even the demons and devils believe in God. They simply don't act on that belief. Yet there is ample evidence of people doing God's work in our lives. If that volitional response to belief is lacking in hell, then this simply isn't hell.
Considering that if Earth is Hell, why are there churches of gods/goddesses still with the notion that if you believe in such deity, you will ascend to a heaven? Because it promotes a thorough, painful insult to injury. It's a demonized concept of a jail mate being shown a little sunlight of the outside world, showing him or her what is being missed, before being set back inside. It is with this that suggests that people here try so hard to climb back to the faith that they want to believe (now), even though they may or may not know that it is futile.
So, in Hell's scenario, are churches here, devised by Satan's mind, to promote pain and suffering before the people go back to Hell for another gazillion years? Is it to show the people the errors of their ways, to be reminded why they are in Hell before being sent back in? Hopefully I'm not skewing away from the topic at hand here....
That's a viable option, and if you think about it, those who run the churches aren't exactly in saints. Not in the catholic church at any rate. I haven't heard of any other scandals of that nature in major religions so... Moe also made a good point in that you can experience great joy and pleasure, this isn't something that occurs in christian hell.
I'm not familiar with this, but isn't Christian hell for an eternity? Doesn't this seem rather vicious for a being that is supposed to be benevolent? It would definitely enforce the idea that this literally is hell on earth.
If the proposition "I am alive" is false, then I am being deceived. And since we're granting that heaven and hell exist, I'm assuming that means we can grant that God exists. Using Descartes' method of reconstructing his beliefs, we can say with certainty that we're not in heaven. If we were, we would know, because God is not a deceiver.
Your application and breakdown of Descartes is one of the many reasons I have a philosophical crush on your brain. Methodological skepticism is so sexy!
So that leaves open the option that we're in hell. But under a Christian conception of faith, I don't think that's possible either. Consider the number of people who are in hell here with us who go to church. I think it was Leibniz who said something like even the demons and devils believe in God. They simply don't act on that belief. Yet there is ample evidence of people doing God's work in our lives. If that volitional response to belief is lacking in hell, then this simply isn't hell.
Your logic is flawless. I just have one request. Can we define the term hell? Depending on this definition, there might be another point to bring up.
After doing a bit of Googling, my worries about this question are realized. The Bible says certain things of hell - that there's fire, gnashing of teeth, it's eternal, and it's dark. But that's not a very helpful depiction. I also read that the King James Version of the Bible mistranslates "Hades" as "Hell" when the two are apparently not synonymous. It seems like Hades might a holding place for the dead, similar to Greek and Roman mythology. Perhaps it's the basis for Catholic limbo?
So the problem with trying to compare our existence with that of either heaven or hell seems flawed. We already know the Bible is extremely metaphorical, so what parts of these descriptions are legitimate? Is heaven really a city paved with gold? If it is, then this notion is inconsistent with heaven being a spiritual realm.
You're question is a good one, and I'm not sure there's an answer.
So the problem with trying to compare our existence with that of either heaven or hell seems flawed.
Screeching halt, I'd say. This has been the problem in the back of my mind with this topic. If we cannot properly define our terms, we are debating for...what?
But does it have to be hell/heaven from a Christian P.O.V? Granted it's the most commonly accepted hell, but isn't it possible that it's a mixture of multiple hells?
Nobody has exactly the same idea about Hell - given the thousands of years people have had to decide you'd think they would have reached a conclusion. Anyway... What if Hell was the place you imagined as Hell? Or a desert filled with black sand under a midnight sky where you wonder in loneliness for all eternity? Or determined by the most common image of Hell at the time?
The concept of the soul has strong links with notions of an afterlife. For an afterlife to exist, there must be something that survives the body when death occurs. Usually this something is the soul.
Strong links because thats what our common religious belief systems have come up with. What about wood burning into the air and becoming nothing more than the transfer of energy into another form. I belief there is a strong possibility that this is all that happens. Who said the soul has to be concious?
