ForumsWEPRHave you seen a Conservative on AG?

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TheAKGuy
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TheAKGuy
995 posts
Nomad

No seriously. This is like insect repellant for republicans. Have you ever, in a million years, seen a conservitive on AG? You know, like a die hard, Arizona, John McCain type Conservative?

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NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Also, after rereading what I previously posted, I did exaggerate the whole welfare thing. That part is my bad. However, the system is abused and what I should have said is that we can't cater any more to the poor. I do apologize.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Eww, GTFO. Conservatives are horrible, horrible people.

holt24
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holt24
1,133 posts
Nomad

Eww, GTFO. Conservatives are horrible, horrible people.


Yes how dare us not want to give our money to bummers.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

Eww, GTFO. Conservatives are horrible, horrible people.


I like how he hasn't read any part of the Conservative arguments around here and just blurts this out. Nice job Avorne!

After reading Nemo's post entirely, while (mostly) reading everyone else's, they have inspired me to be more right towards economic views. It took me a while to realize, while welfare may look nice on paper, doesn't really help much in the long run, as I see many people in my neck of the woods go on welfare but do the bare minimum on what it asks.
Paradoxymoron
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Paradoxymoron
65 posts
Nomad

Rather than wish happiness for as many people as possible, you wish for equality, even if it means less happy people.


Progressive taxation does mean happiness for the largest number of people, since the government is taking from the rich minority and giving to the poor majority. I hardly think one could argue otherwise.

You sound like someone who does not support inheritance. That is the most unfair thing there is. Rather than giving your children something, the state takes it and gives it to someone else?


I thnk inheritance tax in the UK is high enough to be distributive without being a disincentive (50% for the higherst rates). The argument I have against inheritance is that since neo liberalism relies on the tenet of mertiocracy to justify its existence, it completely shirks away from enforcing one. If the world were truly meritocratic people would be born equal in terms of rights and access to services. However that would be a dream world. However, at least progressive parties acknowledge the fundamentally good idea behind this, rather than living in denial from an uncomfortable truth, as conservatives do.

Regardless, you can't be unfair to people who work honestly to make a living to cater to those who are poor.


Well that certainly depends on how you define 'fair' doesn't it? Has it never occured to you that a key reason people are able to work is because they had a helping hand in life?

The amount of taxes we pay should be small and the people should have a say of what is and is too much.


I really don't see why the people should have a say in this. If they did, people would choose 0, and then where would we be?

So stop talking about fair. There is no method that is "fair" to the poor except one where the poor can work for money, then keep it.


And how exactly are you going to get the poor into work without taxing the rich to pay for their schooling to give them the skills necessary to work?

However, the system is abused and what I should have said is that we can't cater any more to the poor. I do apologize.


The US could quite easily cater to the poor. You spend a tiny amount on wealth redistribution programmes compared to most developed countries.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

Progressive taxation does mean happiness for the largest number of people, since the government is taking from the rich minority and giving to the poor majority. I hardly think one could argue otherwise.


It's also taking from the middle class. Regardless, it's not right to take from someone JUST BECAUSE they are rich.

I thnk inheritance tax in the UK is high enough to be distributive without being a disincentive (50% for the higherst rates). The argument I have against inheritance is that since neo liberalism relies on the tenet of mertiocracy to justify its existence, it completely shirks away from enforcing one. If the world were truly meritocratic people would be born equal in terms of rights and access to services. However that would be a dream world. However, at least progressive parties acknowledge the fundamentally good idea behind this, rather than living in denial from an uncomfortable truth, as conservatives do.


I'm not going to lie. That's somewhat sickening in my opinion. I do not envy rich kids who inherit their wealth, because either those kids learn to handle their wealth or they lose it. Parents who work hard to become wealthy often know the importance of making sure their children are responsible before inheriting anything.

I'm okay with people inheriting their parent's wealth because their parents worked hard and deserve to have a say in what happens to their possessions when they die.

Equality is not fair when those who are above are unjustly taken from. Why should someone who inherits their wealth lose it just because poor people are unfortunate enough to be born poor? If I make 1 million dollars, why should my children be able to inherit only half to none of it? How is that fair?

What's fair to you, which is forcing people to be equal at birth, is unfair to me, because I believe that people who work hard and earn their pay have the right to pass their good quality of life to their children who they worked so hard for.

Well that certainly depends on how you define 'fair' doesn't it? Has it never occured to you that a key reason people are able to work is because they had a helping hand in life?


Everyone needs help to achieve their goals. Some people are able to get that help, others aren't. It's not the government's responsibility to give that helping hand, it is the responsibility of the people.

The more you try to force people so they all have an equal number of opportunities, the more you limit the number of opportunities given to people as a whole.

Again, it is unfair to take from those who are fortunate enough to have people that help them, just to cater to the unfortunate.

I really don't see why the people should have a say in this. If they did, people would choose 0, and then where would we be?


Not true. Look at all the people who support the health care bill.

I'm not saying we should have individual choices of what we do and do not pay, but we should have a say in where our taxes are going. Again, our tax dollars are going towards drug wars.

The only way to force people not to have a say in where their tax dollars go, is to limit their freedom of speech or to ignore them completely. If you ignore people long enough, they will fight their government.

Look at American protests. Whether you agree with them or not, you have to admit that they are very peaceful. American protests rarely turn violent because we believe in freedom of speech and we believe we should (and can) have a say in where our taxes go.

And how exactly are you going to get the poor into work without taxing the rich to pay for their schooling to give them the skills necessary to work?


Easy, stop forcing people to acquire an education for jobs such as hair styling and radio broadcasting. Stop sending so many students to school to get a degree in cooking, and allow businesses to hire people who have experience rather than a paper that says they graduated something that was nothing more than an expensive investment.

Education is good, but if you are able to cook without going to a cooking school, I don't see why a fancy restaurant shouldn't hire you. The same goes for many other jobs out there. If you want to become a hair stylist, you can't have your mother or friends teach you, you need to go to school.

There are many black American women who are great at breading hair, but the only way they can get a job braiding hair is to get an education they can't afford.

The US could quite easily cater to the poor. You spend a tiny amount on wealth redistribution programmes compared to most developed countries.


If the US caters to the poor, the prices of everything rise. The poor remain poor, the people who were above the poor line are now poor, and the rich are less rich.

Basically, you have more poor people.

As for all the other developed countries doing it, look at Greece.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

Yet it seems to be done more often then not by stepping on others. Also what of those who can't fend for themselves, are we to just say tough luck you should have been rich?


No, we say "Tough luck, luckily we have rich people or everyone would be in the gutter as well."

"liberalism Political and economic doctrine that emphasizes the rights and freedoms of the individual and the need to limit the powers of government."


Either you are talking about liberalism according to a different country or an older form of liberalism. The meaning of Liberal has changed in America.

Yet it seems to be done more often then not by stepping on others.


I really don't see this very often unless it involves companies that should be illegal, such as credit card companies.

I have to agree the government bail outs of big business has gotten out of hand. however this ball got started while conservatives were still in power.


To be honest, conservatives and liberals both tend to screw up.

The problem here is big business has proven to be unable to regulate itself.


Then we allow the business to fail while another one takes its place.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Sorry, for the triple post. I forgot to reply to Mage and I hit Submit before finishing my post.

Those points sound more like the result of corruption on both government and big corporations. The government shouldn't be making concessions to big businesses.


This is true. I believe big business often is corrupt, but I also believe that the government is corrupt as well. I believe in keeping these two corruptions as separate from each other as possible.
Shenko
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Shenko
1,059 posts
Treasurer

im a conservative who voted for obama

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

mage are you a conservative?


I'm not particularly fond of government as a whole, but do see it as a necessary evil. So I'm not sure what I would deem myself.

No, we say "Tough luck, luckily we have rich people or everyone would be in the gutter as well."


The government should be in the business of taking care of the needs of the people, not telling the people tough and catering to the top few. When the government does cater to the top few is when we get corruption in the government, such a in your example of making concessions to big business.

Either you are talking about liberalism according to a different country or an older form of liberalism. The meaning of Liberal has changed in America.


I'm having trouble finding your definition of liberalism here.

I really don't see this very often unless it involves companies that should be illegal, such as credit card companies.


Are you kidding? You could pretty much name any big business you want and it would be one that steps on the less fortunate to help themselves.

To be honest, conservatives and liberals both tend to screw up.


I agree with you there. Though I don't see how conservatism is any better.

Then we allow the business to fail while another one takes its place.


This goes into the whole stepping on the little guy issue I have with big business. It's not so much they may go under from not regulating themselves, it's how much worse they would treat their employees if they weren't regulated.

This is true. I believe big business often is corrupt, but I also believe that the government is corrupt as well. I believe in keeping these two corruptions as separate from each other as possible.


But this would just allow one of those corruptions to run wild...even more so.
Graham
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Graham
8,051 posts
Nomad

Where's that ol' anarchist TSL3 when you need'um? ;D

Shenko
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Shenko
1,059 posts
Treasurer

i say oligarchy is the best idea ever
its also the most common form of government in the world

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

welfare may look nice on paper, doesn't really help much in the long run, as I see many people in my neck of the woods go on welfare but do the bare minimum on what it asks.


Gee thanks. I am a US Military veteran, I have an undergraduate degree, and I'm on welfare. I appreciate your understanding of socio-economic situations and solutions....

i say oligarchy is the best idea ever
its also the most common form of government in the world


ORLY? Then why is it that every major oligarchy in the world has had a disastrous dissemination/destruction? If it were so great wouldn't it actually work????
Paradoxymoron
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Paradoxymoron
65 posts
Nomad

It's also taking from the middle class. Regardless, it's not right to take from someone JUST BECAUSE they are rich.


The middle class is tiny. Do not fool yourself into thinking wealth is anywhere close to being evenly distributed, or that they can't afford to be taxed. And yes I do think it is right to tax rich people just because they are rich. Because the poor need services they cannot afford, and the rich are easily able to shoulder the burden.

Why should someone who inherits their wealth lose it just because poor people are unfortunate enough to be born poor?


Why should someone get £1million merely due to the accident of birth?

I don't think anyone deserves anything (surely as a neo con that appeals to you?). Some people just get lucky. So, they get highly taxed. I'm certainly not going to lose much sleep over it, since they have done absolutely nothing to earn it.

What's fair to you, which is forcing people to be equal at birth, is unfair to me, because I believe that people who work hard and earn their pay have the right to pass their good quality of life to their children who they worked so hard for.


And they can still do this. People getting taxed at %50 are those with property valued over £1million, and that's only on the property after that £1 million threshold. I don't support taxes from those who cannot afford it, but please don't ask me to feel sorry for someone who inherit wealth for doing nothing and then find a significant portion of it is taxed. I might aswell send my condolences to the next national lottery winner.

The more you try to force people so they all have an equal number of opportunities, the more you limit the number of opportunities given to people as a whole.


How exactly? Despite being misguided, New Labour's programme of job creation through government spending did create jobs and skilled workers.

It's not the government's responsibility to give that helping hand, it is the responsibility of the people.


That depends on what you think the role of government is, and for me that is one of its key roles. Providing services where none would be provided otherwise.

Not true. Look at all the people who support the health care bill.


I wonder how many of those people are on lower incomes, and will not see a large increase in their tax, or who cannot afford health insurance.

The only way to force people not to have a say in where their tax dollars go, is to limit their freedom of speech or to ignore them completely. If you ignore people long enough, they will fight their government.


Not really. You live in a representative democracy. You elect people to think for you, in the John Locke model of liberalism which your constitution is based upon. Once the election is over, your say means very little to politicians. And no you don't have to limit freedom of speech, you can just ignore the people. Americans really aren't very good at violent uprising either, at least not in the past century.

Easy, stop forcing people to acquire an education for jobs such as hair styling and radio broadcasting. Stop sending so many students to school to get a degree in cooking, and allow businesses to hire people who have experience rather than a paper that says they graduated something that was nothing more than an expensive investment.


If you do away with vocational qualifications, how are businesses supposed to compare different candidates, if all they say is 'I am a really good cook' on theri CV. It's simply not practical.

Basically, you have more poor people.


Since the introducation of the welfare state in Britain and the rest of Europe, the numbers of people living in povertyy has declined. Also, if why would government investment cause cost push inflation? It's being invested into education programmes, it's not money in people's pockets.

As for all the other developed countries doing it, look at Greece.


A poorly deployed strawman. Greece really isn't a developed country. It relies almost entirely on EU CAP farming subsidies to produce olives. It's sovreignh debt crisis did not occur because of the welfare state either, but because of the financial crisis, and an massively overpaid and underworked public sector.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

I'm tired of debating this and I do not have the time to do so.

People should be allowed to inherit money. It's unfair not to be allowed to inherit something you "don't deserve" because every parent who works, tends to work for themselves, their spouse, and their children. It is unfair to parents who wish to pass what they earn onto their children. It is unfair for children to have to work for something their parents could have easily given them.

We shouldn't force everyone to be hard workers. We should only give people opportunity to work hard to become rich, while those who are rich work to remain rich. Everyone IS working. Those who don't work either don't become rich, or they lose their money.

I will address other points that you made at a later time if this thread is still alive by then. I do not have the time or the patience to further discuss how sickening it is to steal from babies.

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