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Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

We had a discussion in the WEPR a couple months back about transferring bodies and what effect that would have on the psyche, mind, and functionality of the human body. All knowledge and evidence points to the fact that the brain is responsible for all manners of consciousness and activity. Given this, it would be possible that, given the necessary surgeries needed to transplant a brain into a fresh body, the consciousness of the transplant-or would use the vessel and live on. Once man1 reaches an old age, he can use a brain transplant to use a new vessel to become man2, but with his own consciousness. If he was 80 before and is using a 20 year old man, he would add 60 more years to his conscious life.

Complications of various manners can occur:

Immorality, for example, dictates that it would be wrong of a man to take someone else's body for his own, just to live longer. Even though the transplant-ee signed the waiver to allow man1 to take his body, the majority may think of this as wrong.

Socially, how would you interact with others, and vice-versa? You just took the body of a 20 year old man that had his own friends and family, while your own family is pretty much gone. Would you be with man2's peers or with man1's peers that are in generations 3 and 4?

Lawfully, how would you be tagged and ID'd? Jonathan Morrison (man1) or Samuel Watson (man2)? Would businesses and workplaces accept one that took the body of another man? Would you be shunned among your co-workers, or instead be revered, as you would have half a century of field experience?

Naturally, how would the flow of nature go, if many other people decided to transplant their brains, assuming morality accepts it? Our population expenditure would dramatically increase, wouldn't it?

Morality#2, what would others think if you were to mate with what used to be your family, but physically not? Biologically, the two are supposed to be strangers, thus fit to mate and would produce healthy children with none of the complications that mating with blood members would ensue.

Personally, would Man1 stomach the fact that he's using another man (or woman?) as a vessel? Would he be able to function normally, or would he break down? I suppose that would have to depend on Man1's original psyche.

I personally find this an interesting thread, and I would love to hear from the rest of you. Think: living for more than 120 years. No one has ever done that before in recorded history. Would it not be insurmountably awesome?

I would also like to resurrect Moegreche from the nether so I could hear his insight on this. :3

  • 71 Replies
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

I have often thought about transferring the brain into a new vessel, though I never thought about a younger corpse, rather about a synthetic body that would suffice to keep the brain alive and transmit it's signals. That would even leave the possibility of altering the body's form and functions to your needs. Of course there wouldn't be much 'human' left in this case.
One problem should be that the brain itself isn't immortal. How do you keep the brain tissue fit? From about twenty years on it very slowly degenerates, so you should find a way to either make the brain reparing and maintaining itself or gradually exchange old neurons with new synthetic neurons; I think if you only exchange the neuron but leave the function the same that shouldn't have a big impact on the consciousness (without taking into account the psychological stress that this may cause).

Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

I'm pretty sure in the future, we will be able to redirect stem cells and focus them to create neurons that will repair the loss of tissue. I have no clue what will happen from this though, as neurons are the prime source of many different spectra of your psyche--how you act, how you feel, how you adapt, et cetera. Given that scientists can figure out how to manipulate the stem cells to recreate neurons without backfiring, I would think that brain transplants can be very successful.

Moe
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Moe
1,714 posts
Blacksmith

This reminds me of the Bene Tleilax gholas from dune.

On a more serious note if we gain the ability to transfer head with brain, or just the brain, would it be plausible to grow clones of the person? If so you might be able to grow a clone that wouldn't have to give up a body for the other person. Instead it would have never had a life or conscious to begin with.

Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
1,322 posts
Farmer

your topic is very interesting...and I myself thought of such when i was a really young kid

........but there is a flaw that i don't remember seeing addressed when I scanned the posts that have already been made.

i don't remember everything but i will tell everything i remember in a way that i hope everyone will be able to understand.

at the end of your chromosomes there is an area of noncoding dna. I don't know why and i don't know if it can be stopped, but everytime your dna replicates the noncoding telomeric cap is shortened for some reason. eventually those caps diminish to the extent of being nonexistant. when that happens bad things start happening... cells start failing and dying. tissues start dying (not as a whole... but piece by piece (cell by cell))... systems start failing. sounds like old age right?

its what happens when you clone something... its why dolly the sheep lived a less than full life. whether or not this is the same for the brain I have no idea.... i would assume it would follow suit being that it is made up of cells as well.

what i'm trying to say... is our days are numbered. even if you never get sick or hurt or cancer... you have a limited time on this earth. there may be an enzyme that replicates the noncoding area and adds back to it... but the net change is a diminishing one.

plus... i think the brain begins to smooth over sometime as age progresses. w/ diminished surface area of the top layer of the brain comes diminished function... if it diminishes enough then u become a vegetable.

i would imaine that for immortality to occur we would have to be able to transfer our brains to a cyber medium... like the Ghost in the Shell anime. but then.... if we were to computerize our minds... would the real us be "alive"... or "dead"... b/c if its no longer organic... is it really "alive"?

can stem cells be used to curb this phenomena? no clue

i would think we would need

Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
1,322 posts
Farmer

...sorry...

i would think we would need to advance more in technology. so as of right now i don't think there is a means of immortality available to us

Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

at the end of your chromosomes there is an area of noncoding dna. I don't know why and i don't know if it can be stopped, but everytime your dna replicates the noncoding telomeric cap is shortened for some reason. eventually those caps diminish to the extent of being nonexistant. when that happens bad things start happening... cells start failing and dying. tissues start dying (not as a whole... but piece by piece (cell by cell))... systems start failing. sounds like old age right?


This is why immortality via brain transplant can happen. You are doing away with an old body and replacing it with a fresh, young one, while still keeping your conscious half.

can stem cells be used to curb this phenomena?


Possibly. I think this is only a temporary fix for your idea, and for the stem cells to replace the entire body, well....we don't have a lot of resources for that.

so as of right now i don't think there is a means of immortality available to us


What about the OP's method? Sounds doable to me. Those setbacks I listed will conflict with it though.
cmb2kool
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cmb2kool
378 posts
Nomad

Wow you really thought this out, in my opinion though that can no be achieved because once the brain is disconnected from the original body it would die off.

Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
1,322 posts
Farmer

This is why immortality via brain transplant can happen. You are doing away with an old body and replacing it with a fresh, young one, while still keeping your conscious half.


what i was actually getting at was...... the brain is made up of cells like your arm and intestines for example... your brain is an organ. the dna in the cells of your brain go through the same phenomena. eventually the noncoding end of the dna there will also become nonexistent. I don't believe i explained this to the very end. once it is no longer there the coding dna starts to be trimmed off. the chromosomes eventually wittle down to nothing (that's if the organism could sustain life until then. without dna there would be no way a cell could survive. and no way a person could survive. unless you could negate this phenomena then a brain transplant would only work for as long as the brain could sustain itself.

another note... the spinal cord is a part of the brain... its just an extension. knowing something about how nerves and the neurosystem works... it would be very hard to reconnect everything in the proper way. ie.. there are different parts of the spinal cord that are like highways from different parts of the body to and from the brain... its not one functional unit. if you were to cut only part of it (and somehow manage to keep the uncut area that immediately surrounds it from going through a chemical reaction that kills the pathway there) then you most likely wouldn't have a full paralysis under that part of the spine... only the area whose highway had been severed would be affected.

as for the chemical thing i disscussed... i don't know how to explain it. just look up how blue m&m's can cure spinal damage. that's where i am pulling my information from. its a serious article with an odd title. m&m's can't actually cure nervous tissue damage but when the chemical in the blue dye is taken in massive amounts intravenously (through a needle) it can stop whatever reaction that takes place in the nervous tissue that further destroys that area after sever trauma to that area.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
1,322 posts
Farmer

Why are we discussing science on a gaming site?


honestly... i don't play many games on here anymore. i'm too busy with school. but i still browse the forums and check my page every now and then... especially when i have a statement I've made that's pending for responses. if i don't have anything that i'm expecting an answer to then i don't browse as much.

i think using another's mind to sharpen your own is one of the best ways to train your brain. it works pretty well. plus you get some ideas as to what other people think on different controversial topics
Peter20
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Peter20
543 posts
Peasant

well yes i sopose it would be possible but if somehow in the future they can transfer brain from body to body i mean can the surgent honestly not make a mistake in the operation and if the brain is pushed too hard in one place it would die if it is taken from a body too long it dies if it is slightly cut in the wrong place it dies it may work 1 or 2 times but not forever but really i dont want to live forever

Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

in my opinion though that can no be achieved because once the brain is disconnected from the original body it would die off.


The idea is to do the same thing as one would do a heart transplant; naturally, one would think that as soon as you remove (or even touch) a heart, the patient dies, but with freezing comas, the impossible could be possible.

it would be very hard to reconnect everything in the proper way. ie.. there are different parts of the spinal cord that are like highways from different parts of the body to and from the brain... its not one functional unit.


Like a heart, you would have to reconnect all the valves and arteries in the proper position. You wouldn't have to replace the entire circulatory system, just the main command center for that system. So for this instance, replace the entire brain and suture the transplant to the body's peripheral nervous system, aka the spinal cord that branches off into the nerve endings that reach the different parts of the body.

Complications would be that the suture wouldn't be connected as planned, and the transplant-ee would be severely paralyzed. Secondly, if the transplant-or's brain is not the same blood type as the transplant-ee, then the body will generate a response attack against the brain and the patient suffers.

While seemingly complex, you can say the process is similar to how one does heart transplants.


As for my opinion, I probably wouldn't want to live forever. I would however, want to live a very, very long time.
MoonFairy
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MoonFairy
3,386 posts
Shepherd

we will be able to redirect stem cells and focus them to create neurons that will repair the loss of tissue

OR Would you just have to get a transplant with a different coding on the top of your cells so that they would b accepted by your own personal body?

I will gather all information I remember from last year's biology.

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx210/MikuMitsuki/cell_membrane.gif

See that carbohydrate Chain guy? Well he is what tells your body that this cell belongs to you. He is your ID tag. Now what goes wrong in transplants and stuff is that other peoples ID tags are still on the cell membrane, but it is in YOUR body, so your immune system wants to kill it. So when you get transplants and stuff, you have to take medicine that shuts off that part of your immune system so that way the rest of your body will accept the new tissue that doesn't have your ID tag.

If there was a way to "remove" the other persons ID tag from their tissue, and replace it with YOUR ID tag, then I think the POSSIBILITY to do a full out brain transplant could take place. But after you get this one critical ID tag out of your way, then you can study what it would take to connect all of the systems together. But what good is being able to hook up the brain to a body if the body won't even accept the brain? See what I'm saying here?
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
1,322 posts
Farmer

If there was a way to "remove" the other persons ID tag from their tissue, and replace it with YOUR ID tag, then I think the POSSIBILITY to do a full out brain transplant could take place. But after you get this one critical ID tag out of your way, then you can study what it would take to connect all of the systems together. But what good is being able to hook up the brain to a body if the body won't even accept the brain? See what I'm saying here?


that is a good point.... but i'm pretty sure all you have to do is remove the carbohydrate altogether and its just as good as if it has your specific type of carbohydrage.

that's the way blood type O works... (there are like dozens of different sub classes and its more technical than just O but i don't know it...so i can't discuss it)... A...B...AB...and O are the blood types used when discussing this in class. A is one type of carbohydrate... B is another... AB is having both... and O is having none. A can accept from A and O. B can accept from B and O. AB can accept from all. and O can only accept O. for this example of blood the rejection only occurs when the invader has something other than the host. therefore if it has the same or doesn't have anything at all then its safe.

that is how some viruses or bacteria (don't remember which) survive... they somehow surround themselves with tissue from whatever cell they've infected and ended up killing and the body registers that entity as part of it b/c all it reads is the outer covering of the virus which is in fact part of the host.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

Moon, that was good information and all, but you quoted me on the wrong subject. That's talking about repairing the worn-out brain that would happen from living for too long, using neurons to repair it. But yeah, that's something that could also occur from surgeries.

MoonFairy
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MoonFairy
3,386 posts
Shepherd

that is a good point.... but i'm pretty sure all you have to do is remove the carbohydrate altogether and its just as good as if it has your specific type of carbohydrate.

@ Frank, this is why it co-insides with the subject.

I will try to get some information on this, but right now, it sounds like you are a dad that is clueless as a mechanic, but you are trying to fix your kids car.
"Well.... This guy doesn't look important!"
But really you just threw out fuel pump.
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