ForumsWEPRA Debate/Challenge for all Atheist on AG

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redbedhead
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redbedhead
341 posts
Nomad

Now to start this off, I have but one request: I will respect you as an individual and as a human being as long as you will give me the same respect. Too many times have I debated over this topic in the past with atheists, and not to be bias but, most times in the PC world of today if you believe in theism or creationism you instantly become ridiculed for being an unintelligent imbecile. I took debate all four years of high school, throughout all of undergrad at KU, and I'm currently enrolled in Stanford for a double major in Law and Spanish. Now I have no degree directly in science but in no means am I unintelligent. I have studied this subject personally and have done my own research and have attended many seminars on the subject so I do know what I am talking about the subject. I do not want this to turn into a flame war of mind numbing mudslinging and dehumanizing of a person of an opposing view. So again I ask that this remains simply an intelligent debate over the topic.

Note:I wrote this all in Word then cut/pasted onto AG so if any format problems occur I apologize up front and I will try to edit and fix them as they arise.

Alright now for the exciting stuff. So here is the case.

How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?

Alright now let me lay the foundation and boundaries for this case.
1. The most important out of all of these is what the case entitles. This is not a debate on if an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER exists at all (because there are plenty of threads on the forums that encompass this debate) , but how the universe came about in the first place WITHOUT intelligent design.
2. This being said it entitles that a world that was created by intelligent design is the status quo. Whether you believe it or not for the purposes of this debate it will remain the status quo making the defense against this case: the negative, and leaving the affirmative challengers with the burden of evidence.
3. If evidence is claimed be sure to back it up not using sole opinion and analytics to prove your point. (i.e. "Evidence proves that this happened!!" ....what evidence are you citing?)
4. Neither side can claim FIAT in any fashion. It either happens or it doesn't.
5. Keep it clean.
6. **IMPORTANT** To all mods reading this, as I said this is not a debate on rather or not an intelligent designer exists or not so this is not a repeat thread, rather a thread that is from a different point of view so please do not lock this thread for that purpose. Also I am aware (from a few years ago) that a majority of the mods are atheists and again I please ask that you do not use your power to make the debate unfair and you work with me to keep it on the right track as to not let it just become a giant hate flame war. I know mods in the past have, well to be blunt, have been flat out rude when it comes to topics like this which in turns creates an atmosphere for unintelligent debates. So let's just keep this one on the right path.

Alright now on to the second part of the resolution: To fully win this debate the following answers must be answered with compelling evidence or at least a substantial amount of them. I have made a wide scope of logical questions to be answered and I don't find a single one of them ridiculous even if you disagree they still must be negated.

1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing
2. How did we get something out of nothing
3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life
4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.
5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?
6. How do you explain the beginning of time itself?
7. When, where, and how did the laws of the universe form and come about? (gravity, inertia, etc.)
8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.
9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?
10. What did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce? Since it would be asexual reproduction how do several single cell organisms develop into something completely different?
11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.
12. Does the individual animal or plant have a drive to survive, or the species in whole? How is this explained?
13. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?
15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?

Satirical humor might seem funny to you such as "Oh you are very smart aren't you! I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster/Invisible Pink Unicorn/Cold fire-breathing Garage Dragon too! It makes just as much sense as your invisible God! You're unintelligent and ignorant and I can't debate with someone as stupid and crazy as you because you believe differently than I do and I am significantly smarter than you." But the truth of the matter is; it's very offensive to me and I believe all the other Christians or theist on these forums that have to endure troll comments like this. I have not insulted you (maybe my views have) but I have not made fun of you or ridiculed you for your beliefs or commented on your intelligence. I hold myself to be a respectable man, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting a person for their beliefs. I am judging no one for their beliefs and I agree that every single individual is entitled to their own opinions and it does not make them any more unintelligible than me for believing something different. So making a remark about being a Pastatarian or challenging my intelligence is just rude and uncalled for and I hope no one will go to such lengths as being unprofessional over a complex debate.

As I am completely aware (being a Christian over the years) the biggest thing creationists are antagonized for is their "blind faith" for their religion of "gaps". I agree that I have much faith in God as a supernatural being that I cannot see who created everything we see today, but the evidence is purely in statistics and although this debate is not encompassing that directly; it's leading to my next point. That what it is that amazes me the most is the total denunciation of faith by the scientific community when they so do it themselves. How so? The fact that they try to just take it a step further past a divine creator, and look at the beginning of time an unanswerable question that just has to be assumed as a theorem. That alone, takes a great deal of faith to believe in something that honestly can't be proven or any logical argument would lead to an infinite loop that is really just not rational either. The argument will presumably take a turn to who created a creator which is not the main focus of this debate but to make this clear. The reason there is no need for a creator of the creator then the reason the creation needs a creator is like this example: Leonardo Da Vinci created the Mona Lisa in 1519. Yet according to this same exact theory, who created Da Vinci? So "let's just take it a step further and say" that the Mona Lisa created itself out of nothing. Whereas actually if we DO have evidence of design then it doesn't matter where did that object come from. Since we know that the Mona Lisa painting is designed and likewise we can't avoid the design inference by asking who made the painting. Similarly *IF* we can show that universe has design then you can't escape the inference by asking "Who made the designer?". Thus "who made god" may be a good counter to the cosmological argument but not so a good in the case of design arguments. Thus as stands a world created by intelligent design will remain the status quo for the entirety of this debate.

  • 159 Replies
314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

Well first off wikipedia is not a credible source as you said but I will still refute the argumentation you made. I'm well aware of what the Big Bang Theory states. Yet what you fail to see is yes you have "evidence" for IF the matter was there the Big Bang would be able to work. Yet since there is a LACK of evidence for the accounting of the matter forming in the first place the Big Bang theory can not be fully proven until the start of it. Thus relooping this circle that we have been going around. Where was the evidence conceived from and how was it proven may I ask?

Also going along the same theory that the big bang theory does, If I were to have an empty garage and left it alone for a million years, when I come back will I have found a BMW that has randomly been created from nothing? No? How about if I come back 6 billion years, or even 6 trillion years? Alright BMW is a manmade machine fair enough. So let's say I turn my garage into a vacuum devoid of all matter. If I were to come back 6 billion years or however many would I be able to find a single carbon molecule?


You seem to have not actually read the wiki and only posses a kindergarten version of it. I suggest you read the wiki, or at least the links it has on the end.

This links back to my first point where would that come from? Actually if you look at the complexity of perfectly forming a single molecule of carbon out of nothing is like me at the very LEAST writing a 1000 page novel, being generous and tearing three random pages out of it and telling you to perfectly reconstruct the exact same novel word for word allowing you all the time in the world (6 billion years perhaps)  Would you be able to do it? The statistics are just too staggering to be logical.


Ok, so what about this YAHWEH fella? Infinitely complex, infinitely powerful, and far more advanced than any molecule. What makes you think he could just come into being, since he is WAY WAY more advanced than any molecule he allegedly created? That is like believing that a fully made space ship could create itself but a lean to would be far to advanced. What logic goes along there?
redbedhead
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redbedhead
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Nomad

Religion, however, doesn't work that way. It is different opinions on what the person's ideals would be, not what is actually there.


Fair enough. Regarding to moral issues yes that is very true, which is the main reason we have many denominations of different religions. But strictly on a creationist view of religion compared to science, all the reasons the others have tried to prove me wrong apply the exact same to science as I have proven through previous arguments. As I said I will negate all my own beliefs if the majority of the questions shared in the resolution would be solved for scientifically backed and different way than a creationist claims. (i.e. "the matter was always there" = "so was the creator" same argument different statement. You can argue all day that it's not the same argument but the faith value still factors in and the truth of the matter is that bluntly, it really does)
samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Well first off wikipedia is not a credible source as you said but I will still refute the argumentation you made.


Yes it is, just because it says things you don't agree with doesn't cost it its credibility. Heck it's more accurate than the Encyclopedia Britannica, google it.

Actually if you look at the complexity of perfectly forming a single molecule of carbon out of nothing is like me at the very LEAST writing a 1000


Citation.

Yet since there is a LACK of evidence for the accounting of the matter forming in the first place the Big Bang theory can not be fully proven until the start of it. Thus relooping this circle that we have been going around. Where was the evidence conceived from and how was it proven may I ask?


That's because it's a theory! A theory can't be proven, ever, but it can be supported by enormous amounts of evidence, observations, and experiments.
314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

But strictly on a creationist view of religion compared to science, all the reasons the others have tried to prove me wrong apply the exact same to science as I have proven through previous arguments


Now lets look into that creationist view. There are thousands of versions of that in one church? To name a few, young earth, old earth, literal, non literal, god created the big bang, just off the top of my head, those are several creationist views you could go into a church and interview from people.

And since when do creations use logic? Science is simply knowledge, not guys in lab coats being intelligent. Or at least that is the root, just look at words like "omniscience". If your view was true, it would be "science". So far I have seen you simple not use real physics, which is hardly debating.

As I said I will negate all my own beliefs if the majority of the questions shared in the resolution would be solved for scientifically backed and different way than a creationist


Great, than abandon your beliefs, the origins of the universe has plenty of evidence for it *points back to wiki*

aims. (i.e. "the matter was always there" = "so was the creator" same argument different statement


Why ad the unnecessary step that would only make the problem more complex? Its like us saying 2+2= for and you saying "No, 2+2+2-1+(-1)=2!" which ends with the same solution, but one is more complex with unnecessary factors. But the argument here worsens when you apply the logic that you think the creator is not only still in existence, but having an astronomical impact which has not been observed. It would be like 2+2+2-1+(-1)=2+2-1, an untrue statement that has no possibility of being true whatsoever.

ou can argue all day that it's not the same argument but the faith value still factors in and the truth of the matter is that bluntly, it really does)


Faith? Oh yeah. The poison of the human race, not only ignoring actual science in the lack of evidence but in recent years in spite of evidence! That trifle that, quite frankly, is an insult to human intelligence.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

How did your knowledge in law somehow give you religious knowledge?


studying law (from what i hear) has alot to do with studying/researching old court cases. If op is truly as far into his education as he says, then it means that he is not new to research and critical thinking.... plus i would imagine that maybe there has been/will be a course or two on the evolution of law.... if the classes go so far as to study the way the bible influenced the law of our time then i would think his pursuit of a law degree would in fact give him "religious knowledge."

now JOHNSBIGGESTFAN... what has given you science knowledge?
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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Shepherd

These are some common arguments that people often mistake as evidence. I am going to clear them up.

"I don't know how the earth was created, therefore there must be a God."


Your lack of knowledge on a subject is not evidence that there is a god.

"Nobody knows for sure, therefore the answer must be God"


Again, humanity not having an answer is not evidence that there is a God, it is merely evidence that humanity does not know the answer.

"The chances of this happening are impossibly slim, therefore there must be a god." or "It's statistically impossible, therefore there must be a god."


Well, it happened, therefore it's not impossible.

A lack of explanation is not evidence that there is a god.

"If there's no God, how did the universe begin?"

"I don't know, naturally?"

"You can't explain it, so there must be a god."

I will not answer any of your questions until you present evidence that there is a god who created the earth. Lack of evidence does not count.
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
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Nomad

1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing

Let me clear one thing up right now; the "Big Bang" is a misnomer. It was actually coined by Fred Hoyle. He was an astronomer who supported the "steady expansion" theory concerning how the universe was created. He came up with the term "Big Bang" to be disparaging, because he thought that no one could believe that the universe was actually created by a huge explosion. He obviously underestimated human stupidity.
It was really more of an expansion. One widely accepted theory is that the universe started as a tiny pinpoint fireball-type-thing and it has been slowly expanding ever since. I know that this is incomplete, but ask yourself; is this really any more improbable than some divine being that just "has always been there, and was never created"? I am certain that more knowledge will be garnered on this subject as long as we keep researching it.
In the meantime, here is a little something for you to read on evidence for the Big Bang.

2. How did we get something out of nothing

The current theory is that the universe started out as a singularity, then slowly expanded over time. And I will be the first to admit that we just aren't sure about this one. And before you say anything; creationism isn't concrete either. When we ask "where did God come from?" and you reply "he has always been"...well...you cannot just create something out of nothing, and something cannot just "exist"; the Laws of Conservation of Mass applies to both evolutionism and creationism.
Here is some reading for you on the so-called "Big Bang".

3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life

If I'm not mistaken, carbon and similar heavy elements started in stars. Stars are one of the few places where fusion actually occurs, so atoms; say, two beryllium atoms, could conceivably be fused together to create one carbon atom.
Now you're going to say one of two things:
1. "How did the beryllium atoms come to be, then?"
Honestly, it would have to be that either matter has always existed or it was created through some surge of energy. We-I-just don't know, really, and I think that the human mind cannot comprehend oblivion.
2. "How were the stars created, then?"
This one's easier; life can't have been formed immediately, obviously, so there would have been ample time for stars to form before the creation of carbon.
Here's something for you to read on about that.

4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.

Because a &quoterfect planet" was bound to happen. Understand that there are billions of stars and solar systems in the universe, so it is it really so improbable that one would be suitable for life?

5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?

Because our view of the universe is limited. What we see from planets millions of light years away from us occurred millions of years ago, and we can't even see many solar systems. It would be a fairly rare occurrence.

8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.

First things first: "dead" matter is still organic matter. This matter was never alive in the first place. It was inorganic, not dead.
I refer you to the theory of abiogenesis.
First, there was the Miller-Urey experiment, conducted by Stanley Miller and Harold Urey. Urey and Miller combined methane, ammonia, and hydrogen gases(three gases that were present in the atmosphere of good ol' pre-life Earth) in a moist environment(above water). To simulate lightning charges, they supplied their experimental system with an electrical current. After a few days, Miller and Urey noticed that their miniature Earth environment contained organic compounds; some of these compounds were amino acids, which are essential to organisms. Miller and Urey continued their experiment and found that this environment also created hydroxy acids and other organic compounds in addition to amino acids.
Then, we have to create DNA(deoxynucleic acid) and RNA(ribonucleic acid), right? There are a few essential components of DNA and RNA: adenine, ribose or deoxyribose(the former for RNA, and the latter for DNA), and a group of phosphates.
First, to the creation of adenine. In the 1960's, Juan Oro combined a mix of ammonia and hydrogen cyanide in an aquatic environment. He found that this could create adenine, a fundamental component of DNA and RNA, as well as being the main component of adenosine triphosphate.
How did it go from being a nucleotide to being a polynucleotide? Well, in the 1980's, researchers found that montmorillonite, a clay-like resource abundant on ancient Earth, could serve as a catalyst for this connection of atoms. So, yeah. Now we have that. And RNA can sometimes clone itself, so now we have RNA; and those RNA compounds that don't make the cut can just split into regular old methane and cyanide.
As RNA replicated, its chemicals were shared with the stuff around it. Lipids like to clump together to form micelles. RNA molecules that drew the micelles to them found themselves protected inside the micelles, so those RNA molecules inside the micelles survived to replicate. And tada! You have your very first cells.
And as time went on, through the processes of natural selection, evolution, and heredity, organisms slowly became more and more advanced and complex. I know it seems improbable, but remember that this is taking place over billions of years.

I think that the above also answers most of your other questions. Here's some more fun stuff on that, read away!

11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.

If organisms do not reproduce, they will become extinct. It's as simple as that. No organism is immortal, it will die, so it makes sense to reproduce, creating more organisms to take its place once it dies.

14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?

We HAVE those missing links.
Click here, I'm in no mood to list them all.

15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?

Well, I refer you again to natural selection. There are slight mutations and variations throughout time that are randomly spawned in living organisms sometimes, and sometimes those mutations and variations are beneficial to the survival of that organism. So, if this lucky mutated organism has a variation that allows it to survive better, that means that it will have a better chance to reproduce, correct? And each time it reproduces, it will pass on its traits to its offspring, and those offspring will have the same beneficial trait, therefore they will survive better and reproduce more than other organisms without the trait. So gradually the variation will become commonplace.
Here's a cool pic of the evolution of the human skull.

So, now that that's dealt with, I'd like to address some common replies from the creationist end of things before you say them.

"2nd law of thermodynamics, dude!"
All the second law of thermodynamics is, is that while quality of matter and energy remain the same, quality slowly deteriorates and usable energy slowly degenerates into unusable energy.
See?
Therefore, this argument is just plain irrelevant.

"Evolution claims that humans evolved from monkeys!"
No, no it does not. This is a common misconception; evolution actually supports the theory that humans and monkeys, both being primates, have a common ancestor. This is not the same thing as "we evolved from monkeys".

"If evolution was a fact, it would be called a fact, not a theory! Theory means it's just a guess!"
No, it doesn't. The word "theory" in science is different than the word "theory" in everyday life. If it was a guess, it would be called a hypothesis, not a theory. A theory has been tested, and it has been shown to be true by experiments that support the original hypothesis.
"Well then, how come some things are called laws?"
A theory is a collection of concepts that can be built upon as new evidence is uncovered. A law is a statement about how things work in nature that is consistently true. You can hear about Newton's Laws of Motion or the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy, and those have been proved, but no more so than the Germ Theory of Disease or the Cell Theory.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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Jester

8.Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.

9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?


1. Best way to start is looking at ancient earth 4.7 billion years ago. Many different compounds were around back then, such as hydrogen cyanide and methane gas. DNA is made from only 4 different types of Nucleotides, so where did that come from? How in the world did they come to be in this universe?

Here's this: In 1964 a brilliant researcher called Wan Oro put methane and the cyanide to boil in a solution under the perfect conditions that were in ancient earth back then. Afterwards, the solution produced adenine, one of the four types of nucleotide bases. To make a full nucleotide, it needs to gain a sugar called Ribose and a group of phosphates. How in the world did the ribose and phosphate group get formed and get attached to that nucleotide?

2. From the nucleotide to the polynucleotide

Well, once the nucleotide was formed, they needed to form together in chains called polynucleotides. In the 1980s, researchers found that a clay, called "montmorillonite", a very abundant resource in ancient earth, was a perfect catalyst for this process of "chaining".

3. Now we are going to make RNA!

Some of these copies of the polynucleotides with ribose inside, or RNA (ribonucleic acid) are able to make copies of themselves...huh. Of course the copies aren't as perfect, but again, some copies are more adapted than the other copies to survive in the hot, dense planet earth used to be. So these molecules that did survive would replicate and pass on their traits, while those that aren't so great at surviving would just break apart into regular compounds of methane and cyanide.

4. Making protocells!

As RNA replicated, they shared their surroundings with other chemicals around them. Some chemicals, called "lipids" like to clump together to form circular bodies called micelles. RNA molecules that attracted the micelles found themselves protected inside them. Because they were protected, they better survived than those that weren't. From there, they replicated successfully, but with the entire protocell with them. There, you have the first primitive cellular structure.

5. Then from the span of hundreds of millions of years later, RNA grew more complex from replicating and passing on better traits. The single strand formed to create a double-strand molecule, and the more successful DNA molecule evolved. One thing however: DNA needs proteins to replicate. Proteins are made from amino acids or the building blocks of life, so how/where in the world did the amino acids get into the picture?


6. formation of amino acids

a number of experiments with the montmorillonite not only produced amino acids, but long chains of them that are called &quotolypeptides". It turns out that this long-difficult name clay stuff is a natural breeding ground for all these complex chemicals. So there you have it. RNA, DNA, what made it, and what made amino acids, non-living chemicals that in turn made living organisms and the process in which these chemicals came to be.

So as I build this up, I ask you this: if God did create life, when did he come in, using the same kinds of steps that I have provided for you? And if the chemical process needed to create life can happen on its own, why does he need to come in?
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4. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?


I lol'd. 2-3 cell organisms are still classified as multicellular. If you wanna find a missing link to a 3-celled organism be my guest. However, I think that the reason why there aren't any bizarre, 3 celled organisms is that it would be impractical. A unicellular organism has all the necessary organelles to survive on its own. What would the point be with 3 celled organisms? If certain parts of a body are useless, then it becomes vestigial. We can see this with ourselves. When we think of multicellular organisms, we think of bunches of cells grouped to make tissues, then organs, then organ systems.

15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?


Why did you specifically type ears and eyes? Why not the gustatory system, aka our tongues that sense taste? The brain? Wings? Feet? Did you label those two because you thought they were the most complex?

We got these sensory systems because they started off really basic. Remember. We had a couple billion years to get to where we are now. The most basic of sensory mechanisms dates to early cells where they could sense heat, cold, food, and other cells, mostly predators. When later generations of organisms surfaced, they evolved to have more complex organs.

Because these organs were vital to survival, those that had these traits were better fit to survive and reproduce, while those that didn't perished. It's eliminating the bad areas of the genepool while making way for the favorable traits. As more organisms with these traits reproduced, the organs became more complex. It took a step further, saying the best of these organisms would survive, while those that lacked the better traits perished.

It seems to me that you lack knowledge of natural selection. I suggest you learn it some more.
Rangersoul5
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Rangersoul5
186 posts
Nomad

If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?

It's like trying to solve a problem in which YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, probably NEVER will, but you keep trying to answer it because you want to make a point, win an argument, a power struggle if you will.

Atheists vs Theists < - It never ends.

Why can't people just say this

Guy 1: Is there a God?
Guy 2: Well we don't have the answer for that, and probably never will. Sorry, I guess you'll have to wait until you die.

Instead of.

Guy 3: REASONS WHY GOD EXISTS - > BLA BLA BLAH who created the universe?

Guy 4: BIG BANG BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS AND THAT.

Oh well :/.

Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
26,390 posts
Nomad

If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?

Because it's fun, informative, and a challenge! You have no idea how many times I facepalm when I try to debate other people my age. This is how I keep my brain sharp like a tack, che.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?


Because foolish theist believe that they know, and wish to teach there horrible twisted views of there reality to not only the world, but even in schools and the government, stopping science from getting a satisfactory answer. You can see where this is a problem?

Atheists vs Theists < - It never ends.

Why can't people just say this

Guy 1: Is there a God?
Guy 2: Well we don't have the answer for that, and probably never will. Sorry, I guess you'll have to wait until you die.

Instead of.

Guy 3: REASONS WHY GOD EXISTS - > BLA BLA BLAH who created the universe?

Guy 4: BIG BANG BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS AND THAT.

Oh well :/.


Because there is no god... And, though you may not to be able to prove the origins at the current point, you can prove that holy text are man made falsehoods that can not be divinely inspired and are simply just myths.

Why do I not like religion? Lets say it is like alcohol. Its fine in moderation to make you feel good, every once in a while, but if you take to much if it it clouds your logic. You should leave it at home when you are going into a lab environment. You should not be forcing it on your kids. And keep it out of the government.
Rangersoul5
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Rangersoul5
186 posts
Nomad

Why can't Religion and Science coexist? :/.

I'm not a Theist believing that I know everything, or trying to preach it and brainwash kids either.

Nor am i an Atheist.

I guess i'm neutral, sort of.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Your OP is a lot better but we already have this debate going.
http://armorgames.com/community/thread/6802845/what-created-space

2. This being said it entitles that a world that was created by intelligent design is the status quo. Whether you believe it or not for the purposes of this debate it will remain the status quo making the defense against this case: the negative, and leaving the affirmative challengers with the burden of evidence.


Why should this be accepted as status quo or the default position at all? If we don't know something isn't more reasonable and intellectually honest to simply say "we don't know" rather than "God did it"?

How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?


1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing
2. How did we get something out of nothing


It wasn't something from nothing, it started with a singularity. Now how that singularity got there is unknown. It's even possible it was always there. Another problem with this is we don't have any real example of true nothing. Further more observation of what we could considering "nothing" shows electrons seemingly popping in and out of existence. These two points indicate nothing is an unstable form that necessitates that something fill it.

3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life


Pretty much the same way we got all the other elements beyond hydrogen and helium. From nuclear fusion from a previous generation of stars that went supernova.

4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.


This question is backwards. It's not that the Earth is suited for us, it's that we are suited for the conditions present on Earth. This is because of how natural selection works.

5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?


It might not be the only place. It is the only place we are currently aware of though. mathematically speaking it's likely there are millions possibly billions of planets with not just life but intelligent life on them. Also the earth is only about 4.5 billion years old not 6 billion. Our inability to observe such occurrences on other worlds could simply be the result of our inability to get there.

6. How do you explain the beginning of time itself?


Time isn't an operator in quantum mechanics Since the initial singularity operated under the principles of quantum mechanics this would mean the events can precede time. Space and time are essentially one int he same so as space emerged from the expansion of the Big Bang so does time.\\

Scroll down this claimed the uncertainty relationship between time and quantum physics.
http://www.exactspent.com/time_in_physics.htm

7. When, where, and how did the laws of the universe form and come about? (gravity, inertia, etc.)


Quantum physics usually collapses as we reach the macroscopic level. So it would stand that as the universe reached such a state physics as we know them took over. I'm not sure exactly when, but I would guess it couldn't have been to much after the Big Bang.

8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.


Same place carbon came from in your previous question. Life formed through chemical reactions of several basic elements that once combined could self replicate. The exact steps that were taken to reach this is still in debate.

9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?


I would hardly call things perfectly organized. As for where matter came from it came from energy collapsing into matter.

10. What did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce? Since it would be asexual reproduction how do several single cell organisms develop into something completely different?


I think this video offers a plausible explanation of how sexual reproduction could have evolved.
The Origin of Sexual Reproduction

11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.


Original self replicating molecules didn't do it because of any sort of desire, it's simply how such an organism functions. As to why later species that would function on a desire would develop such a desire it would allow for the species to continue on. Yes it would mean more mouths to feed but it would also mean your species can live on after you die. So a desire to want to reproduce also increased the chances of that species to continue on.

12. Does the individual animal or plant have a drive to survive, or the species in whole? How is this explained?


Pretty much the same way we can explain the desire to reproduce. developing a desire to survive improved that species chances of carrying on.

13. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?



Threw mutations.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Mutation_and_Evolution.html
How Evolution Adds New Information

14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?


Don't know the when or where. Why would allow for cells that could not live on there own to survive. I don't think single celled organisms are classified as plant or animal life. It's possible non survived to become fossils, it's possible the development of multicellular life didn't require such an intermediate, it's possible they do exist and I just don;t know about them to properly answer this part of the question. At this step you are referring to I don't know where the REAL missing link has been found if it has been found at all. Though the way you stated this seem some what condescending.
Not all transitional steps become fossils, with the fossil record we get more of a snap shot view of events. for example I could show you a picture of me as a 1 year old another at 5 years old and incrementally all the way up to my present state, but just because I didn't have a picture of myself at 2 years old doesn't mean I was never 2 years old. The fact we have found as many fossil indicating transitional steps is like going to look for a needle in a hay stack and finding a pile of needles instead of a pile of hay. The short answer is we have more then just a few, we've been able to create near complete progressions from one form to the next.
Check out what this guy was able to do with artistic renderings of the transitional species found leading to humans.
Quest for Truth: Transitional Species

15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?


Eyes evolved during the Cambrian explosion from light sensitive cells. As for the ear here's a video explaining. Evolution of Hearing

How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?


So finally your question. We can easily explain a universe without intelligent design especially since there has been no evidence indicating the existence of a designer. If there is a designer there does not seem to be any necessity for such a being for things to culminate into what we have. So a designer would be as useful as someone opening automatic door for someone.

Whereas actually if we DO have evidence of design then it doesn't matter where did that object come from.


We don't have evidence for design, just because something is complex doesn't mean it was designed.

Similarly *IF* we can show that universe has design then you can't escape the inference by asking "Who made the designer?". Thus "who made god" may be a good counter to the cosmological argument but not so a good in the case of design arguments.


I wouldn't really even take it this far. With science you want to explain things in the simplest way possible based on the available evidence. So if there is no evidence of a designer and we can explain things without having to add one, why should we?
Rangersoul5
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Rangersoul5
186 posts
Nomad

Because it's fun, informative, and a challenge! You have no idea how many times I facepalm when I try to debate other people my age. This is how I keep my brain sharp like a tack, che.


How you keep your brain sharp if you're trying to solve something that's impossible?

That's impossible!
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
26,390 posts
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How you keep your brain sharp if you're trying to solve something that's impossible?
That's impossible!

Not so, if you're thinking you're using your brain, and science is heavily involved in this debate, and science requires a lot of brain activity.
It's very possible.
It's like philosophy, almost.
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