Forums → WEPR → A Debate/Challenge for all Atheist on AG
159 | 26006 |
- 159 Replies
159 | 26006 |
Now to start this off, I have but one request: I will respect you as an individual and as a human being as long as you will give me the same respect. Too many times have I debated over this topic in the past with atheists, and not to be bias but, most times in the PC world of today if you believe in theism or creationism you instantly become ridiculed for being an unintelligent imbecile. I took debate all four years of high school, throughout all of undergrad at KU, and I'm currently enrolled in Stanford for a double major in Law and Spanish. Now I have no degree directly in science but in no means am I unintelligent. I have studied this subject personally and have done my own research and have attended many seminars on the subject so I do know what I am talking about the subject. I do not want this to turn into a flame war of mind numbing mudslinging and dehumanizing of a person of an opposing view. So again I ask that this remains simply an intelligent debate over the topic.
Note:I wrote this all in Word then cut/pasted onto AG so if any format problems occur I apologize up front and I will try to edit and fix them as they arise.
Alright now for the exciting stuff. So here is the case.
How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?
Alright now let me lay the foundation and boundaries for this case.
1. The most important out of all of these is what the case entitles. This is not a debate on if an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER exists at all (because there are plenty of threads on the forums that encompass this debate) , but how the universe came about in the first place WITHOUT intelligent design.
2. This being said it entitles that a world that was created by intelligent design is the status quo. Whether you believe it or not for the purposes of this debate it will remain the status quo making the defense against this case: the negative, and leaving the affirmative challengers with the burden of evidence.
3. If evidence is claimed be sure to back it up not using sole opinion and analytics to prove your point. (i.e. "Evidence proves that this happened!!" ....what evidence are you citing?)
4. Neither side can claim FIAT in any fashion. It either happens or it doesn't.
5. Keep it clean.
6. **IMPORTANT** To all mods reading this, as I said this is not a debate on rather or not an intelligent designer exists or not so this is not a repeat thread, rather a thread that is from a different point of view so please do not lock this thread for that purpose. Also I am aware (from a few years ago) that a majority of the mods are atheists and again I please ask that you do not use your power to make the debate unfair and you work with me to keep it on the right track as to not let it just become a giant hate flame war. I know mods in the past have, well to be blunt, have been flat out rude when it comes to topics like this which in turns creates an atmosphere for unintelligent debates. So let's just keep this one on the right path.
Alright now on to the second part of the resolution: To fully win this debate the following answers must be answered with compelling evidence or at least a substantial amount of them. I have made a wide scope of logical questions to be answered and I don't find a single one of them ridiculous even if you disagree they still must be negated.
1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing
2. How did we get something out of nothing
3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life
4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.
5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?
6. How do you explain the beginning of time itself?
7. When, where, and how did the laws of the universe form and come about? (gravity, inertia, etc.)
8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.
9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?
10. What did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce? Since it would be asexual reproduction how do several single cell organisms develop into something completely different?
11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.
12. Does the individual animal or plant have a drive to survive, or the species in whole? How is this explained?
13. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?
15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?
Satirical humor might seem funny to you such as "Oh you are very smart aren't you! I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster/Invisible Pink Unicorn/Cold fire-breathing Garage Dragon too! It makes just as much sense as your invisible God! You're unintelligent and ignorant and I can't debate with someone as stupid and crazy as you because you believe differently than I do and I am significantly smarter than you." But the truth of the matter is; it's very offensive to me and I believe all the other Christians or theist on these forums that have to endure troll comments like this. I have not insulted you (maybe my views have) but I have not made fun of you or ridiculed you for your beliefs or commented on your intelligence. I hold myself to be a respectable man, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting a person for their beliefs. I am judging no one for their beliefs and I agree that every single individual is entitled to their own opinions and it does not make them any more unintelligible than me for believing something different. So making a remark about being a Pastatarian or challenging my intelligence is just rude and uncalled for and I hope no one will go to such lengths as being unprofessional over a complex debate.
As I am completely aware (being a Christian over the years) the biggest thing creationists are antagonized for is their "blind faith" for their religion of "gaps". I agree that I have much faith in God as a supernatural being that I cannot see who created everything we see today, but the evidence is purely in statistics and although this debate is not encompassing that directly; it's leading to my next point. That what it is that amazes me the most is the total denunciation of faith by the scientific community when they so do it themselves. How so? The fact that they try to just take it a step further past a divine creator, and look at the beginning of time an unanswerable question that just has to be assumed as a theorem. That alone, takes a great deal of faith to believe in something that honestly can't be proven or any logical argument would lead to an infinite loop that is really just not rational either. The argument will presumably take a turn to who created a creator which is not the main focus of this debate but to make this clear. The reason there is no need for a creator of the creator then the reason the creation needs a creator is like this example: Leonardo Da Vinci created the Mona Lisa in 1519. Yet according to this same exact theory, who created Da Vinci? So "let's just take it a step further and say" that the Mona Lisa created itself out of nothing. Whereas actually if we DO have evidence of design then it doesn't matter where did that object come from. Since we know that the Mona Lisa painting is designed and likewise we can't avoid the design inference by asking who made the painting. Similarly *IF* we can show that universe has design then you can't escape the inference by asking "Who made the designer?". Thus "who made god" may be a good counter to the cosmological argument but not so a good in the case of design arguments. Thus as stands a world created by intelligent design will remain the status quo for the entirety of this debate.
Well first off wikipedia is not a credible source as you said but I will still refute the argumentation you made. I'm well aware of what the Big Bang Theory states. Yet what you fail to see is yes you have "evidence" for IF the matter was there the Big Bang would be able to work. Yet since there is a LACK of evidence for the accounting of the matter forming in the first place the Big Bang theory can not be fully proven until the start of it. Thus relooping this circle that we have been going around. Where was the evidence conceived from and how was it proven may I ask?
Also going along the same theory that the big bang theory does, If I were to have an empty garage and left it alone for a million years, when I come back will I have found a BMW that has randomly been created from nothing? No? How about if I come back 6 billion years, or even 6 trillion years? Alright BMW is a manmade machine fair enough. So let's say I turn my garage into a vacuum devoid of all matter. If I were to come back 6 billion years or however many would I be able to find a single carbon molecule?
This links back to my first point where would that come from? Actually if you look at the complexity of perfectly forming a single molecule of carbon out of nothing is like me at the very LEAST writing a 1000 page novel, being generous and tearing three random pages out of it and telling you to perfectly reconstruct the exact same novel word for word allowing you all the time in the world (6 billion years perhaps)  Would you be able to do it? The statistics are just too staggering to be logical.
Religion, however, doesn't work that way. It is different opinions on what the person's ideals would be, not what is actually there.
Well first off wikipedia is not a credible source as you said but I will still refute the argumentation you made.
Actually if you look at the complexity of perfectly forming a single molecule of carbon out of nothing is like me at the very LEAST writing a 1000
Yet since there is a LACK of evidence for the accounting of the matter forming in the first place the Big Bang theory can not be fully proven until the start of it. Thus relooping this circle that we have been going around. Where was the evidence conceived from and how was it proven may I ask?
But strictly on a creationist view of religion compared to science, all the reasons the others have tried to prove me wrong apply the exact same to science as I have proven through previous arguments
As I said I will negate all my own beliefs if the majority of the questions shared in the resolution would be solved for scientifically backed and different way than a creationist
aims. (i.e. "the matter was always there" = "so was the creator" same argument different statement
ou can argue all day that it's not the same argument but the faith value still factors in and the truth of the matter is that bluntly, it really does)
How did your knowledge in law somehow give you religious knowledge?
These are some common arguments that people often mistake as evidence. I am going to clear them up.
"I don't know how the earth was created, therefore there must be a God."
"Nobody knows for sure, therefore the answer must be God"
"The chances of this happening are impossibly slim, therefore there must be a god." or "It's statistically impossible, therefore there must be a god."
1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing
2. How did we get something out of nothing
3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life
4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.
5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?
8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.
11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.
14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?
15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?
8.Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.
9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?
4. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?
15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?
If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?
It's like trying to solve a problem in which YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, probably NEVER will, but you keep trying to answer it because you want to make a point, win an argument, a power struggle if you will.
Atheists vs Theists < - It never ends.
Why can't people just say this
Guy 1: Is there a God?
Guy 2: Well we don't have the answer for that, and probably never will. Sorry, I guess you'll have to wait until you die.
Instead of.
Guy 3: REASONS WHY GOD EXISTS - > BLA BLA BLAH who created the universe?
Guy 4: BIG BANG BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS AND THAT.
Oh well :/.
If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?
If humanity doesn't know the answer than why are we debating this?
Atheists vs Theists < - It never ends.
Why can't people just say this
Guy 1: Is there a God?
Guy 2: Well we don't have the answer for that, and probably never will. Sorry, I guess you'll have to wait until you die.
Instead of.
Guy 3: REASONS WHY GOD EXISTS - > BLA BLA BLAH who created the universe?
Guy 4: BIG BANG BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS AND THAT.
Oh well :/.
Why can't Religion and Science coexist? :/.
I'm not a Theist believing that I know everything, or trying to preach it and brainwash kids either.
Nor am i an Atheist.
I guess i'm neutral, sort of.
Your OP is a lot better but we already have this debate going.
http://armorgames.com/community/thread/6802845/what-created-space
2. This being said it entitles that a world that was created by intelligent design is the status quo. Whether you believe it or not for the purposes of this debate it will remain the status quo making the defense against this case: the negative, and leaving the affirmative challengers with the burden of evidence.
How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?
1. Explain how some eternal random chance of quantum physics which would have to schematically predate time itself randomly burst forth such a force to create a start to everything out of nothing
2. How did we get something out of nothing
3. How did we get the carbon to form to start the building blocks of life
4. How did earth randomly become the only suitable place for a human being to live and how did it become so perfectly adapted to an orbit around a G2V superstar that would freeze us into an ice age if we were simply 1 or 2 light years further away or burn us to death if we were simply 1 or 2 light years closer.
5. How did the random chance of Earth being the only sustainable place for life occur, and if 6 billion years or more have passed why haven't we seen the same occurrence in other planets or at least the start of it?
6. How do you explain the beginning of time itself?
7. When, where, and how did the laws of the universe form and come about? (gravity, inertia, etc.)
8. Where did the matter come from to make life? How did life come to form from dead matter to living matter.
9. How did the matter get so perfectly organized and where did the energy come from to organize it?
10. What did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce? Since it would be asexual reproduction how do several single cell organisms develop into something completely different?
11. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival according to Darwin's theory of natural selection.
12. Does the individual animal or plant have a drive to survive, or the species in whole? How is this explained?
13. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
14. When, where, why, and how did single-celled plants and animals become multi-celled? Where are the two-and three- celled intermediates? Where has the REAL missing link been found and not already disproven? Wouldn't there have to be several hundreds of missing links for each species to develop (from fish to amphibians, amphibians to reptiles, reptiles to birds or simians) and if there are so many that wouldn't it be simple to find at least a few?
15. When did eyes or ears evolve and from what did they evolve from?
How do you explain the beginning of a universe without intelligent design?
Whereas actually if we DO have evidence of design then it doesn't matter where did that object come from.
Similarly *IF* we can show that universe has design then you can't escape the inference by asking "Who made the designer?". Thus "who made god" may be a good counter to the cosmological argument but not so a good in the case of design arguments.
Because it's fun, informative, and a challenge! You have no idea how many times I facepalm when I try to debate other people my age. This is how I keep my brain sharp like a tack, che.
How you keep your brain sharp if you're trying to solve something that's impossible?
That's impossible!
You must be logged in to post a reply!