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jdoggparty
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jdoggparty
5,860 posts
Nomad

To starty this debate, lets say that we're starting up a brand new country with no existing laws or cultural prejudices on the issue. This is because it is a much different arguement if you take the U.S., than if you take somewhere like Britain. It prevents arguments revolving around destroying the thousands of jobs in the industry too.

So. Brand new country. What are its gun laws going to be?

Should people have the right to own guns? If so, should they be securely locked away in a cabinet until the country is invaded, or should people be allowed to carry them on the street? Should people be allowed handguns but not assault rifles?

  • 122 Replies
sk8brder246
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sk8brder246
740 posts
Nomad

i personally am an NRA member, (yes at 14) but i have been around firearms for my entire life, i dont think guns are the problem with people these days it is the people who choose to do whatever the hell it is theyre going to do. guns are inanimate objects they dont think they dont do anything they dont decide if they kill someone or something. it is the careless owner. but if i had my own country i would just keep everybody that is known as "untrustworthy" with weapons either locked up or unable to keep a gun. many people think that the guns used to do crimes are assault rifles and semi-automatic rifles. that is untrue. if they are convicted of a gun crime they shouldnt be able to buy handguns and other weapons. dont really know where im going with this but i think its a good point. i just think gun crime people shouldnt be able to have guns and if i had my own country i would let them have no access to guns either

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Even if an innocent person is harmed, it's better than everyone being killed.


this is not he case in reality. Usually guns lead to a much higher chance of innocent people being hurt.

This alone refutes all arguments of protection.

Protection should come with society growing up and becoming responsible.

Wont allowing guns increase the amount we rely on them as a tool for ones moral enforcement?
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

this is not he case in reality. Usually guns lead to a much higher chance of innocent people being hurt.

This alone refutes all arguments of protection.


If there were no guns at all, this could very well be true. However, there are guns.

If you prohibit guns, criminals will still get their hands on them. The only people who won't have guns are the good law abiding citizens.

The best way to combat gun wielding criminals is to keep them in check by allowing the citizens to arm themselves with guns as well.

I can go to any gun free zone, such as a college, and kill a large number of people who are unarmed. If I go to a restaurant where law abiding citizens carry fire arms, I will be lucky to kill a single person, let alone survive.

Can a disaster erupt in such a situation though? Could a person pull a gun out in a restaurant filled with armed men and cause trouble? Of course! But this is unlikely for a number of reasons.

1. Human beings generally fear death. If you want to kill someone, you're most likely going to do so with the assumption you will live. Even if you are aware you might be killed, there are certain risks you won't take. The chances you will live pulling a gun on someone in a restaurant full of armed civilians? Slim.

2. If someone goes into a restaurant simply because they want to kill, they are going to kill as many people as possible before the police come. With armed citizens, the number of people harmed will be lower. This is assuming the offender is only trying to kill. It is more likely they will try to rob the restaurant. In this case, there will generally be even less casualties considering most robbers will not kill more people than they absolutely have to (giving everyone else more time to prepare a counter measure).

But again, this is all highly unlikely.

Protection should come with society growing up and becoming responsible.


Let's assume there are 100 people in a community. Some of them have guns, but they all decide guns are evil and they all throw their guns away. Later, 1 person gets their hand on a gun and decides he can rob the other 99 people with little worry, because none of them are armed.

Here's the kicker, if 99 people felt guns were evil, then they are probably responsible enough to own guns in the first place. This means that those who have guns could keep them, and simply not kill anyone. This would allow them to defend each other, or at least themselves, from the one nut job out there.

Protection should come with society growing up and becoming responsible.


If all of society was responsible enough to get rid of guns as to not kill each other, they are responsible enough to own guns without using them on each other.

If everyone in this thread were at a restaurant together and someone decided to pull a gun out, would you rather the people around you be armed or unarmed?

In a society where people already own guns, such prohibition is greatly unrealistic. In a society that started off with gun prohibition, well, good luck keeping guns out.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Wont allowing guns increase the amount we rely on them as a tool for ones moral enforcement?


Oh, I forgot. In America, cities that allow citizens to carry around fire arms more often than not have a lower crime rate than those with heavy gun control.
sk8brder246
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sk8brder246
740 posts
Nomad

yea if your a criminal and have the nerve to kill someone, why would a gun law stop them. thats like a contradiction. thats why many gun control politicians are stupid. they just sit in their nice little million dollar houses and hope that their laws get passed. they conduct thier little studies that dont even make sense, (if you ever actually look at their studies then do some of your own research you will find that they make no sense at all) they just rely on deception and stupidity for people to agree with them.

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

If there were no guns at all, this could very well be true. However, there are guns.


Aye. My idealism shines thru again.
valkery
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valkery
1,255 posts
Nomad

If you prohibit guns, criminals will still get their hands on them. The only people who won't have guns are the good law abiding citizens.


So very true. I couldn't have put it any better. That is the crux of not allowing gunsa t all. Any person on Earth, if so inclined, can get their hands on a gun, regardless of specific countries rules and regulations. It may decrease the amount of violent crime at gunpoint, but it won't eradicate it. It is to easy to get to a black market.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

remember: if everybody carry's a gun for their safety, it's much more likely that someone who freaks out pulls it out and shoot somebody. or remember all those school masacres?


If I remember correctly, none of those happened on a whim.

Let's say guns were prohibited. Some school shootings may have been avoided. However, school shootings are very uncommon. So even if the gun shootings were prevented, there would be many more crimes elsewhere.

The reason I say school shootings are uncommon is because out of the large list of school shootings, it is only a mere fraction when you compare the list to the total number of schools out there, ranging in the tens of thousands.
harryoconnor
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harryoconnor
77 posts
Peasant

In the USA 78% of murders are done with firearms secend highest in world, the UK has similar level of wealth but has tighter gun laws and only 8% of murders are by firearms. The USA overall homicide rate is 7.55 around 5x UK at 1.5. Americas gun laws cause thouasands of deaths each year, you are more likly to get shoot in the USA then Mexico, Costa Rica or anywhere in Europe.
Saying having guns stops crimes is crazy it just turns robbery to murder, if someone points a gun at my head I give them my money, I dont try to draw and load a gun before they shot me. Why risk your life over a small amount of money?

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

In the USA 78% of murders are done with firearms secend highest in world, the UK has similar level of wealth but has tighter gun laws and only 8% of murders are by firearms. The USA overall homicide rate is 7.55 around 5x UK at 1.5. Americas gun laws cause thouasands of deaths each year, you are more likly to get shoot in the USA then Mexico, Costa Rica or anywhere in Europe.


Iv never seen a gun in the uk. Not once. (well, not outside the cadets firing range anyway) I know they are about, but I have yet to get used to the idea of an armed robbery. You guys in USA, do you even bat an eyelid if you read it in the newspaper. You might perk an eyebrow if someone robbed a store with a samurai sword, as would eye... geddit, I... eye... ah well I pleased myself.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

In the USA 78% of murders are done with firearms secend highest in world


Even if there were no guns, there would be similar levels of homicide, it would just be due to a knife or something.

the UK has similar level of wealth but has tighter gun laws and only 8% of murders are by firearms.


There is one valid reason that I could see the tightening gun laws.

The USA overall homicide rate is 7.55 around 5x UK at 1.5.


Can someone find the total population of the U.S vs the UK? I'm curious as to what that is.
MasterC2010
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MasterC2010
187 posts
Shepherd

according to wikipedia:

2010 US census: 308,745,538
2010 UK census: 58,789,194

my rounded numbers:
US: about 300 million
UK: about 60 million

The USA overall homicide rate is 7.55 around 5x UK at 1.5.

using my rounded numbers, the homicidal rate is probably related to total population. here's my math to prove my point:

300 (divided by) 60 = 5
this also proves the person i quoted's point
MasterC2010
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MasterC2010
187 posts
Shepherd

sorry for the double post but:

what i meant was that the person i quoted's ratio is correct

just a thought:
AG should really have an edit function

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

So using MasterC2010's numbers, the homicide rate is proportionally the same, even with stricter gun control laws. So even if 8% are caused by guns, there's still just as much murder, which is where I am now going to quote myself.

Even if there were no guns, there would be similar levels of homicide, it would just be due to a knife or something.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Even if there were no guns, there would be similar levels of homicide, it would just be due to a knife or something.


Not necessarily. You can run from a knife, try running from a gun. Also human mentality works in a weighted system. The gun is easy for the beten wife, the knife is messy, personal and chancing that the husband doesnt see it and overpower her, then she may be the victim of a stabbing instead.



In the UK (population c. 60.5m) there were 765 reported incidents of murder for 2005-6 (Home Office, undated) â" a rate of about 1.1 per 100,000.

In the US (population c. 298.5m) there were an estimated 16,137 homicides in 2004 (FBI, 2006a) â" a rate of about 5.4 per 100,000. Of these, 10,654 were carried out with guns (FBI, 2006b).


Here is also a link to a statistics website

Whichever way you look at it, the USA has more death, proportionally, that the UK. If we are taking 100,000 people from each country then there are more Americans committing gun crime that the same amount of people in the UK.

So I say again... having firearms didnt protect the Afghani population. They are allowed to bear arms and their country got bombed and many civilians died. Does anyone really think that a government with an army would be stopped if it went to war against its own population. Look around the world... look at Africa! Whenever some nut decides to control its own civilian population with force there aint a thing the civs can do about it, armed or not.

Mugabi... genocide... USA and UK... oh we talk to him and ASK HIM to stop murdering his own people... I feel kinda angry and sick right now. Some of you are parroting gun laws that others have told you. Perhaps some darn research into this AND looking at what actually happens in the world would quickly tell you that guns bring death, not protection.

UK : No guns, less death by guns, governemt doesnt control poulation by force. (police DONT carry)
USA: Guns, more deaths by gun proportionally, doesnt control population by force. (police carry)
Africa: Guns with no ability to control, crazy amount of death, in some places dictators control population by force.

How much more clearly do you need it. What "statistic" will change your ideas on guns.
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