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jdoggparty
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jdoggparty
5,860 posts
Nomad

To starty this debate, lets say that we're starting up a brand new country with no existing laws or cultural prejudices on the issue. This is because it is a much different arguement if you take the U.S., than if you take somewhere like Britain. It prevents arguments revolving around destroying the thousands of jobs in the industry too.

So. Brand new country. What are its gun laws going to be?

Should people have the right to own guns? If so, should they be securely locked away in a cabinet until the country is invaded, or should people be allowed to carry them on the street? Should people be allowed handguns but not assault rifles?

  • 122 Replies
sk8brder246
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sk8brder246
740 posts
Nomad

Not really, but am equally happy there isn't other people with guns around me. really its like an equations 2x/2 take the twos away and your left with just x/1 which is equal to x. If no one else has a gun why would need one to protect yourself?


because if your a criminal that would kill someone. im pretty sure a silly little gun law wouldnt stop them from obtianing a gun. or if they have a knife or other weapon.
Thearmedgamer
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Thearmedgamer
156 posts
Peasant



Alrighty, here as I've posted just 7 post higher is the same statistics that prove that more gun ownership lowers violent crime.here's another source


and this third link is one of the FBI reports that gave them the info on violent crime
[url=http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/crimestats_122109]

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

This is common sense, this is why drink driving is illegal.


Exactly.

because if your a criminal that would kill someone. im pretty sure a silly little gun law wouldnt stop them from obtianing a gun. or if they have a knife or other weapon.


Your wrong because in many countries it does stop criminals from obtaining weapons.
Criminals here generally dont use weapons.

Im not sure what image everyone HAS of a criminal but its usually someone poor with a crappy living standard. Not a gangsta!, Mobster, elite commando gone bad, rouge merc or spys from russia! Its a poor jo shmo with no money.

I for one am against civilians carrying weapons unless you need one to defend yourself from nature


There are people who use a gun as part of their job or surroundings. Nature doesnt take prisoners (does the bear ever ask you in for a coffee? no.)
Other humans should NOT be a reason to carry a gun.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

it is a simple fact that in a society with guns there will be a higher percentage per captia of deaths resulting from guns


And I will argue that it is undeniable that there will be more lives saved as a result of guns.

AnalogMunkys drink driving analogy works well for this. Consider for a moment, if everyone was allowed to drink and drive because it was their right to do so


This is a bad analogy. Drinking and driving directly threatens other people's lives. The possession of a gun - not so much. Outlawing guns, however, is like outlawing alcohol (ok, you could just come back with another claim of "bad analogy&quot in this sense, as the possession of an item does not directly affect other people's lives.
Thearmedgamer
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Thearmedgamer
156 posts
Peasant

m not sure what image everyone HAS of a criminal but its usually someone poor with a crappy living standard. Not a gangsta!, Mobster, elite commando gone bad, rouge merc or spys from russia! Its a poor jo shmo with no money.
Onfortunately somebody who attacks people is insane enough to make one even if they are illegal
You don't need connections to get a gun where it's banned, all you need is youtube and your average house's cleaning items or if you have no house and by connection no computer, all you need is a public library and 15 USD or about 7 euros or 8 pounds, I've found more than I would need to make a rifle on the ground on some days.


this says that britain and australia have higher crime rates than america
now the question is, are these high crime rates in spite of gun control or because of it, all signs point to: because of it

Okay, now i'll give you your reason: if you were to decide to kill someone it would mean you don't care about the legal reprocussions of it, and a little bit more of a fine ain't gonna make a difference

Observe the insanity of this
I'm going to create a hypothetical psychopath named phil
now, phil wants to kill somebody, we'll call this other guy bob. now, bob, being a very generic person living in britain obviously has no gun
phil on the other hand has no qualms about killing bob and doesn't care about the legal reprocussions. Suddenly phil realizes that making a gun to kill bob with carries a legal penalty with it, He then decides not to get a gun, and not kill bob despite the extra penalty for gun ownership being a very low fine compared to the one for killing him.

This is what you are thinking when you encourage "control"
the next one will be about what really happens

this is what would really happen. phil wants to kill bob but doesn't want to get the extra penalty for owning a gun. he wants to get the jump on bob as is necessary to kill with things from around the house, so threats are never issued and he just starts with the stabbing

This third one happens in america and leads to a happier ending than the second, and is actually what would happen unlike the 1st

phil owns a gun but bob doesn't, so phil begins with stage one of murder:threats. Bob then calls the police and tells them that phil threatened to kill him, Phil is then dragged to court where he is given the punishment for murder because of a declaration of intent, a week later bob gets a rifle so he can go hunting with his friends, and they all lived happily ever after, except for phil who was rotting in jail for what could hypothetically be for the rest of his life, the end.

same goes with robbery,

most robbers use knives bats or crowbars in america. robber threatens shopkeep with a knife shopkeep pulls gun and the robbers fight or flight reaction defaults to flight, the shopkeeper may or may not call the police after this point, it doesn't really effect him. Life goes on as usual the next day, with the exception of slightly skewed topic choices in peoples conversations. the end
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Outlawing guns, however, is like outlawing (insert choice here)...
any dangerous weapon? Your not allowed to walk around with any dangerous weapon in the UK. Guns are seen as that group of weapons. Im really wondering if you guys get it. Most of you obviously (rolls eyes dramatically) OOOObviously dont understand what it is like to live in a society without guns.

The thought of living is a society with guns makes me think of starwars, a dangerous universe where there is the quick and the dead etc etc etc

In other words I know some of you love the idea because its cool and not because it creates an atmosphere of mutual non aggression and safety?!?

This is a bad analogy.


No its very much not. AND you even said yours was a bad analogy but no matter how bad it was I understand very much what you mean.
If we took the idea of your analogy then even that doesnt quite cut it dude. As Eventine7 said...
Sure most would be mature and sensible enough not to do it... why? Because drinking and driving increase the risk of causing death to yourself and others by crashing etc. Fact. BUT, there would without a shadow of a doubt be more deaths percentage wise caused by drink driving, than in a society in which drink driving was prohibited. This is common sense, this is why drink driving is illegal.


So I will replace all the drinking and driving with guns as shown below.

And then my friend, you will see an EXACT picture of the UK and why guns are illegal.

Sure most would be mature and sensible enough not to do it... why? Because having guns increases the risk of causing death to yourself and others by shooting, accidents etc. Fact. BUT, there would without a shadow of a doubt be more deaths percentage wise caused by shootings, than in a society in which carrying a gun was prohibited. This is common sense, this is why purchasing a gun is illegal.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

This is common sense, this is why purchasing a gun is illegal.


I hate when people say stuff like this, because if it were "common sense," then you wouldn't have to explain it - we could all assume it.
phsycomonkey
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phsycomonkey
789 posts
Nomad

we could all assume it.

If that assumption went wrong everything would go crazy
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Onfortunately somebody who attacks people is insane enough to make one even if they are illegal


Sorry but... ya what! Making guns. Yeap. Totally. I see your point. Because in the UK is a common sight for people to walk around with home made guns causing chaos amongst the unsuspecting and unarmed population. I really see that in effect. Funny. It must be somewhere other than the country I have lived up and down for 28 years of my life in. Pleeeease note the dripping sarcasm in my post here.

This hypothetcal situation is a product of your imagination and it will continue to be so because there is no point in using "what if" scenarios like this in an argument and also... I will have to say it again and again and again and a darn gain before some people might read it enough times and listen...
I live in this country. This doesnt happen.


All the hypothetical situations are moot because I can see what a country can be like with no guns around.

If our hypothetical country from the OP had an idealistic society guns would not be needed.
If the hypothetical country was rife with the same problems that plague the human race right now then there is no point in dicussing what gun laws would be good or bad there because it would be no different to one of many countries in the world.



[quote]This is common sense, this is why purchasing a gun is illegal.

I hate when people say stuff like this, because if it were "common sense," then you wouldn't have to explain it - we could all assume it. [/quote]

I think there are many things we shouldnt have to say are common sense but sadly we do. Do not stick your head out of a train window while its in motion. Do not gulp freshly made hot coffee. Do not open the airlock while the aircraft is in flight. Sadly we have signs everywhere telling us what common sense is. America is especially bad for this not because of lack of common sense but because you can sue for this kinda stuff.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Sorry but... ya what! Making guns. Yeap. Totally. I see your point. Because in the UK is a common sight for people to walk around with home made guns causing chaos amongst the unsuspecting and unarmed population


All you need is a bunch of metal parts that would be extremely inefficient to make on one's own. Really - why even bother wasting your time with all this if you can buy it on the black market?
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

All the hypothetical situations are moot because I can see what a country can be like with no guns around.


But you seem to ignore what a country can be like with guns around.

I think there are many things we shouldnt have to say are common sense but sadly we do. Do not stick your head out of a train window while its in motion. Do not gulp freshly made hot coffee. Do not open the airlock while the aircraft is in flight


All of these have direct consequences of injury. Not so with Firearms and Whatnot.
phsycomonkey
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phsycomonkey
789 posts
Nomad

Suppose all weapons were disintegrated into existence, there would be not many wars leaving peace... And think about how many people would have no jobs without war.

This is not so much related about non military gun ownership which I see as ok until a specific point, perhaps limit gun(s) to a family or person, even then it would be hard to know if someone did... sooo... I say it has its ups and downs

AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

The GunCite puts things a bit more down the unbias middle with this comment

Arbitrary Comparisons Between Countries

The U.S. has a high gun murder rate, whereas a country like England with strict gun controls has almost no gun murders and a very low murder rate. Doesn't this show that gun control is effective in reducing murder rates? Not exactly. Prior to having any gun controls, England already had a homicide rate much lower than the United States (Guns, Murders, and the Constitution: A Realistic Assessment of Gun Control, Don B. Kates Jr.). Japan is another country typically cited (see Japanese Gun Control, by David B. Kopel). (Briefly discussing the difference in homicide rates between England and the U.S. is Clayton Cramer's, Variations in California Murder Rates: Does Gun Availability Cause High Murder Rates?)

Gun control opponents can play similar games. The Swiss with 7 million people have hundreds of thousands of fully-automatic rifles in their homes (see GunCite's "Swiss Gun Laws&quot and the Israelis, until recently, have had easy access to guns (brief summary of Israeli firearms regulations here). Both countries have low homicide rates. Likewise this doesn't mean more guns less crime.

The U.S. has a higher non-gun murder rate than many European country's total murder rates. On the other hand, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate.

Incidentally in 13th century Europe, several studies have estimated homicide rates in major cities to be around 60 per 100,000. (Even back then, the equivalent of coroners, kept records.)

There are many, many factors, some much more prominent than gun availability that influence homicide rates and crime in general. (See this excerpt from 1997 FBI Uniform Crime Report and GunCite's "Is Gun Ownership Correlated with Violent Deaths?&quot

Due to the many confounding factors that arise when attempting international comparisons, this approach would appear to hold little promise for determining the influence of gun levels (or handgun availability) on violence rates.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Here is another website showing how statistics can be bent to the will of those that use them. By both sides.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Here is another website showing how statistics can be bent to the will of those that use them. By both sides.


You shouldn't need to show this by giving an example. Statistics are only capable of showing correlations, and so they are subject to confounding factors / correlation-causation issues.

I quote this quote too much, but it's quite useful.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgebern137458.html
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