ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

Could you guys explain this to me? I'm having a tough time figuring what most of them say. Must be my allergies.


I'm just saying that using the "science" to prove "science" is like using the Bible to prove the Bible.
---
Example:
"Evolution is true because of scientific 'roof'"

"Adam and Eve existed because of Biblical 'roof'"
---
It's the same thing...
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

AfterBurner, Scientific proof is based on observation and what we know is there. The wind is proven by the evidence, the results and the lack of interference against it.

"Evolution is true because of"
And then you can refer to most of the links provided by MageGrayWolf's profile. All have been supported by research, observation and development / change as former theories no longer were viable.

"Science changes itself based on what's observed
Religion prevents observation so that faith can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin -- Storm

It is NOT the same thing, as Science is a tool and it's method is pretty much flawless, as it's based solely on numbers, logic and reason.

As the quote says, religion is based on "faith" -- that is, belief without reason. Whilst I could demonstrate a peculiar ability to sway anyone to my side if they're the least bit logical, they wouldn't find the idea of burning in hell or believing in a deity more powerful in them when there's literally NO reason to.

Unless you're an admitted coward and do so out of fear. Heck, that was one of the ways someone "attempted" to convert me. I mean really, threatening me with something that has as much base as a unicorn doing some very unethical things with its horn and a leprichaun robbing you in the meantime is not something I care for.

Thanks for wasting my time. <3

- H

partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

"Science changes itself based on what's observed
Religion prevents observation so that faith can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin


the quote is based on
the scientific method vs the creationist method:
http://www.dbskeptic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/the-scientific-method.jpg

it's realy what makes science much beter then the good but old gody.
in this new age whit internet you can no longer deny the facts.

"Does the idea that there might be truth
Frighten you?
Does the idea that one afternoon
On Wiki-****ing-pedia might enlighten you
Frighten you?"
- Tim Minchin -- Storm
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I'm just saying that using the "science" to prove "science" is like using the Bible to prove the Bible.
---
Example:
"Evolution is true because of scientific 'roof'"


No, because anyone, given the right resources/prior knowledge (Like how to run the tests/what you're looking for) can reach the same conclusions. This is what is known as independent testing. You can take any part of Evolution and independently test it. We cannot, however, view this magical creation myth of Adam and Eve, where the earth forms before the sun and a rib woman is made.

The Bible is a story. It does not provide "evidence" for itself, as it requires faith to believe and presents itself as the truth.

Science works the opposite, it looks at what is there, finds an explanation for it, tests it, and if correct moves on. If something is later found to have been incorrect, all things after it are then re-evaluated with this new knowledge to see if it still holds.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Oh, also on this, "I'm just saying that using the "science" to prove "science" is like using the Bible to prove the Bible."

You're comparing two different things.

The argument that link Macfan1 gave essentially says, "Adam and Eve existed because the Bible wouldn't make as much sense if they didn't." which boils down to "Adam and Eve existed because the Bible says they did."

When we use science to prove something, we don't say, "blank is true because blank is true." or "this didn't happen because blank would be wrong then."

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

1.) #1 isn't a reason as to why Adam/Eve were real, it's an excuse to defend the Bible by saying we shouldn't just ignore it.


I would extend this to saying not a single one of those points is a reason as to why Adam/Eve were real.
It seems for the most part all it's saying is "The Bible is true because the Bible is true."
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

The Bible is a story. It does not provide "evidence" for itself, as it requires faith to believe and presents itself as the truth.


Substitute "The Big Bang" for "Bible" and it's still a valid statement.

Science works the opposite, it looks at what is there, finds an explanation for it


I like how you contradicted partydevil's cartoon. "it looks at what is there (conclusion), finds an explanation for it (supporting facts)"

Also, about the cartoon. "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?" You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.

tests it


I'd like to see you "test" evolution for me.

If something is later found to have been incorrect


Bingo. Science is always changing. You have no idea that one day, BAM 100% proof might be found to disprove all possible means of evolution. With science, there really is never a solid fact.

If something is later found to have been incorrect


re-evaluated...to see if it still holds


If a theory IS incorrect, you have to re-test to see if the theory is still correct? What?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I like how you contradicted partydevil's cartoon. "it looks at what is there (conclusion), finds an explanation for it (supporting facts)"


No I didn't. "What is there" = fact. Is something not a fact if it's there?

Also, about the cartoon. "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?" You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.


Yes, you can. But this is false logic. Further looking shows that birds are not in fact reptiles because of the differences between them, mainly that they are warm blooded.

I'd like to see you "test" evolution for me.


Go to Mage's profile and read any one of the links. Most of those will have research included, which is what someone did to test them. I do not have anything at my disposal at which to test.

You have no idea that one day, BAM 100% proof might be found to disprove all possible means of evolution


Wrong. There are things which we know for certain. We may not be 100% sure on how they originated, or on every intricate part of how it works, but the overall idea has been proven beyond a doubt.

With science, there really is never a solid fact.


And with religion, fact doesn't even deign to raise its head. Fact is irrelevant to religion.

Which would you prefer to fill a pool with, a cup which may eventually break, or a strainer which catches only certain particles?

If a theory IS incorrect, you have to re-test to see if the theory is still correct? What?


I can't think of a good example, because scientific theories are quite solid and well explained.

If you found something to be wrong, you would have to go back and look at what the implications would be. Is the overall idea still sound? Were we just wrong about the "how" of something, but not the result? That sort of thing.

Substitute "The Big Bang" for "Bible" and it's still a valid statement.


No, it's not. The Big Bang theory DOES have evidence backing it, which is why it is one of the leading theories.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Substitute "The Big Bang" for "Bible" and it's still a valid statement.


?....You do know that there is a pile of evidence supporting the Big bang? Even a look at Wikipedia could prove this...

I like how you contradicted partydevil's cartoon. "it looks at what is there (conclusion), finds an explanation for it (supporting facts)"

Also, about the cartoon. "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?" You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.


You just kind of took one thing, such as "You are a moron. Bob is also a moron. Since you share a single attribute, you must be Bob". You do need some evidence.

I'd like to see you "test" evolution for me.


Alright. Lets just look at medicine. Lets find a disease that has evolved resistance to drugs and try healing someone using those drugs.

Bingo. Science is always changing. You have no idea that one day, BAM 100% proof might be found to disprove all possible means of evolution. With science, there really is never a solid fact.


As apposed to religion, which changes over from person to person?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Substitute "The Big Bang" for "Bible" and it's still a valid statement.


No, The Big Bang is a scientific theory supported by demonstrable, objective evidence. Like every other theory we make observations test them, independently test them and come to a conclusion based on that. It's not something that scientists just make up.


I like how you contradicted partydevil's cartoon. "it looks at what is there (conclusion), finds an explanation for it (supporting facts)"


"It looks at what is there (FACTS) and finds an explanation for what is there (CONCLUTION)"

Also, about the cartoon. "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?" You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.


Yes you can, this is the reason why science doesn't deal in absolutes but degrees of certainty. It leaves room to admit that it may be wrong and will adjust accordingly if it's demonstrated to be so. This is not what you find with religion.

I'd like to see you "test" evolution for me.


Sounds like fun. What sort of test do you propose we run? Keep in mind resources are very limited.

Bingo. Science is always changing. You have no idea that one day, BAM 100% proof might be found to disprove all possible means of evolution. With science, there really is never a solid fact.


Again you fail. I've already explained why science is like this. Of course this accusation does nothing to support how just making something up and mindlessly calling it real regardless of facts is better. Science bases itself on observations and will improve as we gain new information.
Religion just makes **** up and holds no regard to what is actually going on.

If a theory IS incorrect, you have to re-test to see if the theory is still correct? What?


Taking into account the new information the previous test did not. This could end with different results for the test.

The ability for things in science is not a weakness as you seem to be trying to make it out to be but strength, as it allows fro new information to be introduced, thus allowing us to improve our understanding.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Substitute "The Big Bang" for "Bible" and it's still a valid statement.

Cosmic microwave backround.

Literally looking into the past by seeing things billions of light years away?

Does this mean nothing to you?

I like how you contradicted partydevil's cartoon. "it looks at what is there (conclusion), finds an explanation for it (supporting facts)"

Misinterpretation on your end. The facts are what you see -- clarifying that they are actually there constitute them being a fact, like wind. Then you find an explanation for how that works.

This is why we're skyrocketing technologically, because we have the basics, we're finding fine ways to get the most efficient and fantastic things possible. Previously, it would be essentials.
The lightbulb.

You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.

It's funny to use that naming system which is scientifically deriven in your argument. That is also a logical shortcoming that applies to everything.

I am you, because we're both human.

It's a fact that both are oviparous, but there are other traits involved that separate them. The exclusion of this would be known as journali-- haha kidding, it would be biased, unethical and not of the scientific method.

I'd like to see you "test" evolution for me.

Oh, that argument.

Look at many other sources. You'll find enough to support evolution.

You have no idea that one day, BAM 100% proof might be found to disprove all possible means of evolution.

That would be a step forward.
If you found something that denied all your beliefs as a religion, you would go into denial, or create ways to support the current status quo -- the way religion has been working for quite some time now.

If you found something that denied all current theories that have been considered fact, we would gain an entirely new level of understanding and be happy about it.

With science, there really is never a solid fact.

You view that as a bad thing. How bad would it be, to never have progression? Progression towards your jobs, your life goals and etc -- if you just initiated with them there would be no beauty to it. To see the drawing is nowhere near as good to see it in the making, the same is with Science -- as even now, our understanding and new things are in the making. Evolution, being one of them, as there are ants capable of swimming, insects that can fit in your shoe, capable of killing you with ease...

If a theory IS incorrect, you have to re-test to see if the theory is still correct? What?

Or it could be to do with a certain leg of the theory being flawed, and whether or not it is then plausible.
I wouldn't know -- they're two separate quotes and your logic doesn't make me doubt that you'd quote mine.

- H
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

No I didn't. "What is there" = fact. Is something not a fact if it's there?


The Bible is "there" is it fact as well?

Yes, you can. But this is false logic.


My point was that just because you know certain facts, doesn't mean you can draw random conclusions from them.

Fact is irrelevant to religion


Says the one who believes we evolved from bananas.

The Big Bang theory DOES have evidence backing it


First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?

You do know that there is a pile of evidence supporting the Big bang?


^Previous answer^

You just kind of took one thing, such as "You are a moron. Bob is also a moron. Since you share a single attribute, you must be Bob". You do need some evidence.


^Another one of my previous answers^

Alright. Lets just look at medicine. Lets find a disease that has evolved resistance to drugs and try healing someone using those drugs.


Bacteria merely alters its cell walls to prevent harmful particles from entering. They do not alter their DNA.

As apposed to religion, which changes over from person to person?


Sometimes people can misinterpret the Bible's teachings.

No, The Big Bang is a scientific theory supported by demonstrable, objective evidence. Like every other theory we make observations test them, independently test them and come to a conclusion based on that. It's not something that scientists just make up.


So I read what wikipedia had to say and it's all just technical gibberish to me. Except for the part about the universe expanding. I thought the universe was already infinite. How can it be expanding?

"It looks at what is there (FACTS) and finds an explanation for what is there (CONCLUTION)"


What is there = the conclusion, explanation = facts

"It looks at what is there and finds an explanation for what is there."

Yes you can, this is the reason why science doesn't deal in absolutes but degrees of certainty. It leaves room to admit that it may be wrong and will adjust accordingly if it's demonstrated to be so. This is not what you find with religion.


Wow. It's a good thing that that's not what you find with religion. So you basically just said that with science you can never be 100% sure of anything? In that case, I like Christianity because it never changes and I can be sure of what happens.

Science bases itself on observations


Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat.

and will improve as we gain new information


That nails it. If science always changes, you can't be sure that the science we have now, is 100% accurate.

The ability for things in science is not a weakness as you seem to be trying to make it out to be but strength, as it allows fro new information to be introduced, thus allowing us to improve our understanding.


What if science does improve and finds proof of the Bible? But by then it might be too late. You may have died while believing in false science.

Cosmic microwave backround.

Literally looking into the past by seeing things billions of light years away?

Does this mean nothing to you?


You can't literally look into the past, smart one. And does the first law of thermodynamics mean nothing to you?

How bad would it be, to never have progression?


As far as science goes, I would like there to be complete proof of something, rather than progression. I don't want to put my faith in constantly changing science.

Progression towards your jobs, your life goals and etc


That kind of progression literally has nothing to do with scientific progression.

---
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

The Bible is "there" is it fact as well?


Everything inside of it is not there, and we don't know if it was.

My point was that just because you know certain facts, doesn't mean you can draw random conclusions from them.


You can draw logical ones.

Says the one who believes we evolved from bananas.


A) What the hell are you talking about...

B) How does this argument (ignoring that it's based off false facts) prove anything?

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?


First law of thermodynamics is ENERGY can neither be created or destroyed. Besides for that, where did god come from?

Sometimes people can misinterpret the Bible's teachings.


So basically it's impossible to tell which interpretation,if any, is correct.

So I read what wikipedia had to say and it's all just technical gibberish to me.


Tis called science.

Except for the part about the universe expanding. I thought the universe was already infinite. How can it be expanding?


The universe isn't infinite... I think the estimated size was 150 billion light years.

I like Christianity because it never changes and I can be sure of what happens.


Christians arguments change every five minutes once something has disproved them.

Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat.


People actually never really thought that. People were able to tell the earth was not flat because they OBSERVED that as ships approached land, their mast was visible first, then their hull. Before that, at the very beginning, people may have thought it was flat because they OBSERVED no curves, they're too undetectable.
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

The Bible is "there" is it fact as well?


straight forward no it isn't fact. it cannot be fact because it automatically is disproven when it says "the earth is 4000 years old"

My point was that just because you know certain facts, doesn't mean you can draw random conclusions from them.


science doesn't do that, it makes conclusions based on how the data corresponds. to say that the conclusion is random is like saying that the bible has an actual way to prove itself.

Says the one who believes we evolved from bananas.


(was I like this? if so, I'm glad I'm no longer that) no we evolved from monkeys, which holds more merit seeing as how we share more than 97% of our DNA with them.

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?


we don't have all the answers, which is why science is able to adapt. so we can find the answers. if I were to guess, the particle probably had an ultra-density, something that has more mass in it than anything currently around today. if mass can become energy, and then mass again, why couldn't this be false?

Bacteria merely alters its cell walls to prevent harmful particles from entering. They do not alter their DNA.


it does by altering the next generation's DNA through mitosis.

Sometimes people can misinterpret the Bible's teachings.


it's easy to misinterpret what isn't true.

So I read what wikipedia had to say and it's all just technical gibberish to me. Except for the part about the universe expanding. I thought the universe was already infinite. How can it be expanding?


again, we don't know, which is why science can adapt, so we can learn more. if science couldn't adapt, we'd still be using lead as seasoning like the romans did.

What is there = the conclusion, explanation = facts


that's how it is for religion, for science it's better described as:

fact+fact+confirming data=conclusion.

Wow. It's a good thing that that's not what you find with religion. So you basically just said that with science you can never be 100% sure of anything? In that case, I like Christianity because it never changes and I can be sure of what happens.


yes, the hundreds of religions that completely disagree with eachother are absolutely sure as to what happens in the end. now read this statement again, and tell me I'm not stating fact.

Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat.


we would still, if it wasn't for science disproving that later.

That nails it. If science always changes, you can't be sure that the science we have now, is 100% accurate.


so what, if it is 75% accurate, it is still 75% more accurate than religion.

What if science does improve and finds proof of the Bible? But by then it might be too late. You may have died while believing in false science.


but we've already found hundreds of pieces that prove it's fake. sure we could go deeper, and some are, but that would only give us a thousand points that proves that book is wrong.

You can't literally look into the past, smart one. And does the first law of thermodynamics mean nothing to you?


what he means is that since the spped of light is rather slow when you put it in terms of light-years, and that the edges of the universe are billiions of light-years away, we can look at how the universe was billions of years ago, if we have a good enough telescope.

As far as science goes, I would like there to be complete proof of something, rather than progression. I don't want to put my faith in constantly changing science.


the keyword that makes your entire statement a failure is "faith". with science, there is no such thing, there is only fact, and reasoning based off of FACT, not blind belief.

as we all know, ignorance is bliss, but there comes a time when you need to face the facts.

-Blade
stephenking
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stephenking
2,413 posts
Nomad

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?
So... the matter that God had to have to create the universe couldn't be created? It always had to be there? Where did it come from? He had to create it or something. Oh, another question. Where did your god come from?
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