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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?


Wouldn't that disprove god as well?

No matter (Giddit?). Simply: A singularity. More complexly...

Bacteria merely alters its cell walls to prevent harmful particles from entering. They do not alter their DNA.


How do they alter their cell wall, if not by evolution? Do you understand how natural selection works?

You see, the ones with a little bit of natural protection survive and pass on their traits of survival to their children. So their children have a higher resistance. Eventually all the ones who couldn't survive are gone and all that is left is the ones who are resistant. They don't go "OH look! *Blox*", they have no control over their cell wall whatsoever.

Sometimes people can misinterpret the Bible's teachings.


But certainly not every time? So who is right?

Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat.


Because it says so in the Bible...
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

4000 years old"


Traditional interpretation is 6000 years.

(was I like this?


No.

Sometimes people can misinterpret the Bible's teachings.

it's easy to misinterpret what isn't true.


Adding to this, it's also very easy to interpret the Bible whatever way you want. People get out of religion what they want, because they already have beliefs most likely, so whatever agrees with their current belief is then taken into that.

The Bible is "there" is it fact as well?


It's a fact that the bible exists. It's also a fact that whatever is in it was written by humans. This does not however mean that it's a fact that what it claims is in fact, fact.

Says the one who believes we evolved from bananas.


I seriously hope you're joking, but I've come to learn that such statements from Creationists are, unfortunately, all too serious.

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?


As I and others have said before, why the double standard? God can magically exist, but the basic elements of the universe can't? I personally do not know. I'm not familiar with the law of thermodynamics and I do not have the necessary background knowledge in Physics and Quantum Mechanics to understand more than a small portion of the Big Bang Theory in full.

What is there = the conclusion, explanation = facts


No, you've got in backwards still. "The conclusion" refers to the explanation of the "How" something happened, not the physical state of the object to which you are referring to.

And does the first law of thermodynamics mean nothing to you?


I -HIGHLY- doubt you understand the law of thermodynamics more than what any creationist sight cares to mention. Let's not even go into how much they leave out, whether through ignorance or intentional censorship.

In that case, I like Christianity because it never changes and I can be sure of what happens.


Up above the sky is heaven. Yep. My belief never changes. I can be sure that that's true. Do you see how insane that is? Just because you believe something which claims to be infallible does not make it so.
AfterBurner0
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AfterBurner0
896 posts
Nomad

You can draw logical ones.


And you can draw illogical ones.

How does this argument (ignoring that it's based off false facts) prove anything?


It doesn't have to prove anything.

First law of thermodynamics is ENERGY can neither be created or destroyed


Oops. I usually fall asleep during science class. But you still need energy for a big bang don't you?

where did god come from?


God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end.

So basically it's impossible to tell which interpretation,if any, is correct.


It's ultimately up to you on deciding how to interpret the Bible. But first you need to believe that it's true...

Tis called science.


Tis called covering up unexplainable "facts" with big words.

The universe isn't infinite... I think the estimated size was 150 billion light years.


So what is at the end of the universe? A bunch of "Universe construction workers" leaning on their shovels next to their orange cones?

Christians arguments change every five minutes once something has disproved them.


Give me one example of an argument that has change because it has been "disproved."

People actually never really thought that.


Yup no one believed that the earth was flat.

(was I like this? if so, I'm glad I'm no longer that) no we evolved from monkeys, which holds more merit seeing as how we share more than 97% of our DNA with them.


"...We are distant cousins of [i]bananas[i] and turnips..." You know who said that? Richard Dawkins.

it does by altering the next generation's DNA through mitosis.


Fail. Try reading this. Specifically read the part where it says: "The primary result of mitosis is the transferring of the parent cell's genome into two daughter cells. These two cells are identical and do not differ in any way from the original parent cell."

we'd still be using lead as seasoning like the romans did.


Discovering lead poisoning wasn't an adaption, it was a discovery.

we would still, if it wasn't for science disproving that later.


Discovering that the earth was flat was still a discovery, not an adaption.
-
Just to clarify: Discovery is uncovering a concept that is completely new and had no prior knowledge of existence. Adaption is changing a "fact" (<which makes no sense) because it was proven wrong (which also makes no sense because it was never a fact in the first place)

so what, if it is 75% accurate, it is still 75% more accurate than religion.


Wow. Wrong again. There is no "75%" in this business. If the big bang explanation is only 75% accurate, doesn't that make 25% impossible and thus making the whole thing impossible?

what he means is that since the spped of light is rather slow when you put it in terms of light-years, and that the edges of the universe are billiions of light-years away, we can look at how the universe was billions of years ago, if we have a good enough telescope.


No. There is point A and point B. A is Earth. B is a distant light source. A is billions of light-years away from B. God placed light in between A and B so it appears that is has been there for billions of years.

with science, there is no such thing


Really. To me, it just seems like it takes equal or greater amounts of faith to believe that we evolved from bananas, than to believe in God.

Where did your god come from?


God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end.
---

P.S.

I gtg to bed, I'm tired of defeating you guys. 314d1 and Kasic, I'll be sure to address you first thing in the morning.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

And you can draw illogical ones.


Which I will now thank you for proving this through your sentences.

God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end.


So why can't the universe have always been there?

"...We are distant cousins of [i]bananas[i] and turnips..." You know who said that? Richard Dawkins.


Do you know what cousins are? You come from your parents. Your parent's siblings give birth to your cousins. You don't come from your cousins, but if you did that would explain a lot...

I gtg to bed, I'm tired of defeating you guys. 314d1 and Kasic, I'll be sure to address you first thing in the morning.


Defeating us? I am starting to think you did come from your cousin.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

You guys didn't leave me much to say without repeating what's been said.

The Bible is "there" is it fact as well?


The existence of the Bible isn't what's in dispute, it's the context of it that is found questionable.

My point was that just because you know certain facts, doesn't mean you can draw random conclusions from them.


They aren't just random conclusions. They are well supported and tested conclusions.

Says the one who believes we evolved from bananas.


Plants and animals diverged from one another long before the banana came onto the scene. In other words no one is making this claim. Though creationists have said this.
Atheists nightmare debunked. Ray Comfort/Kirk cameron

First law of thermodynamics: Matter can neither be created or destroyed. Where did the universe come from?


Creationist claim CF101 from Talkorigins.org list of creationist claims.

The rebuttal,
"Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973)."

Wow. It's a good thing that that's not what you find with religion. So you basically just said that with science you can never be 100% sure of anything? In that case, I like Christianity because it never changes and I can be sure of what happens.


Yet your certainty is being placed in falsehood. It doesn't change because it ignores facts and evidence. It really is a blind way to go about reality.

Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat.


Religious claim which was dogmatically held onto.

That nails it. If science always changes, you can't be sure that the science we have now, is 100% accurate.


We can say it's 99.9999...% accurate, which is far better then anything religion offers.

You can't literally look into the past, smart one.


Light can only travel so fast. So light from a star say 5 lightyears away will be light emitted from that star 5 years ago. In this way what we see is the past. It what the star looked like 5 years ago. We can follow this out deeper and deeper into space getting a view of the galaxy as it looked further and further into the past.

As far as science goes, I would like there to be complete proof of something, rather than progression. I don't want to put my faith in constantly changing science.


Science doesn't require faith. It has evidence backing it's claims unlike religion.
Your willing to believe something that has nothing backing up what it claims yet are unwilling to accept that which does. Do you have any idea of just how foolish that sounds?
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I gtg to bed, I'm tired of defeating you guys. 314d1 and Kasic, I'll be sure to address you first thing in the morning.


Your post isn't even worth addressing for the most part. All you do is take our points and then insert some stupid joke or a non answer, or use a fallacy.

And you can draw illogical ones.
It doesn't have to prove anything.
Tis called covering up unexplainable "facts" with big words
So what is at the end of the universe? A bunch of "Universe construction workers" leaning on their shovels next to their orange cones?
"...We are distant cousins of [i]bananas[i] and turnips..." You know who said that? Richard Dawkins.
Discovering lead poisoning wasn't an adaption, it was a discovery.
doesn't that make 25% impossible and thus making the whole thing impossible?
To me, it just seems like it takes equal or greater amounts of faith to believe that we evolved from bananas, than to believe in God.


Now, I'll address what is worth addressing.

God placed light in between A and B so it appears that is has been there for billions of years.


Seriously? Why would God have a reason to do this?

But you still need energy for a big bang don't you?


Mage would be much better able to answer this than I would, or someone else, so I'll leave it to them.

God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end.


You pick at science for what you call having no basis or being flawed, but you do the same thing. You're making a statement which you cannot possibly back up, based on nothing.

It's ultimately up to you on deciding how to interpret the Bible. But first you need to believe that it's true...


1) If a requirement to find validity in something is to first have a belief that something is true, then it most likely isn't. Going back to unicorns, I can say you need to have a belief in unicorns in order to believe any of the myths about unicorns. Duh.

2) 100000 different people can read the bible, and interpret it 100000 different ways. In fact, I have never, ever, EVER, seen someone who holds the exact same beliefs as another person, in anything.

Fail. Try reading this.


Evolution in Bacteria

Specifically, this part.

"In our exhibit 'Antibiotics' it is explained that the use of antibiotics in medicine has resulted in resistance to antibiotics. Two mechanisms are responsible for the spread of antibiotic resistance among bacteria: every once in a while spontaneous mutations are formed that result in resistance (many bacteria are re-inventing the wheel!) but some bacteria simply 'steel' the DNA of their counterparts that have learned to deal with antibiotics. So, mutations and DNA sharing are the tools to generate diversity and increases the chance of a best fit. The selective pressure that leads to the spread of resistance is our use of antibiotics that selects for bacteria that are resistant. The battle between bacteria and man--the result of evolution."

God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end


Again, you have absolutely nothing to back this up with.

I'm tired of defeating you guys.


You're not defeating anyone. All you're doing is trolling our points and making fun of things, and then asking us questions which you assume disprove whatever it is about, but actually don't.
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

am I the only one who thinks he is in for a rude surprise when he wakes up?

It's ultimately up to you on deciding how to interpret the Bible. But first you need to believe that it's true...


if you believe that it is true, then how can you interpret it. you have to do it all literally, or not at all. in this case, the bible is false.

Tis called covering up unexplainable "facts" with big words.


just means you need to expand your vocabulary, and then those facts will become explainable.

So what is at the end of the universe? A bunch of "Universe construction workers" leaning on their shovels next to their orange cones?


more likely, the energy of the big bang is still going, and parts of it will eventually turn into matter. this new matter will be the building blocks for new galaxies.

Give me one example of an argument that has change because it has been "disproved."


evolution disproved creationism, and some religions adapted to allow it to be part of god's works. enough said. if you are wondering which religions I am talking about, the most prominent is the catholics.

Discovering lead poisoning wasn't an adaption, it was a discovery.


a discovery that came from scientsts figuring out that lead is harmful to humans. we then adapted science so that we would know that it was harmful from there on out.

Just to clarify: Discovery is uncovering a concept that is completely new and had no prior knowledge of existence. Adaption is changing a "fact" (<which makes no sense) because it was proven wrong (which also makes no sense because it was never a fact in the first place)


you nincompoop, discovery is how science adapts. when we learn, we can alter science to accomodate it. if it is disproven, then it isn't fact, but a theory, which comes from facts. all you are saying is that discovery can't adapt a conclusion, which you and I both know that conclusions can easily be altered, like religion.

Wow. Wrong again. There is no "75%" in this business. If the big bang explanation is only 75% accurate, doesn't that make 25% impossible and thus making the whole thing impossible?


(sigh) if we are only 75% accurate, that means there is still room to discover more. if we were 100% accurate about everything the first time we thought of something, then we would believe god is the reason you are eating bran instead of oatmeal. do you really think that is logical, I sure as heck think it isn't.

No. There is point A and point B. A is Earth. B is a distant light source. A is billions of light-years away from B. God placed light in between A and B so it appears that is has been there for billions of years.


that is the single most ignorant thing I have heard from you so far. listen to yourself, are you so absent minded, that you will believe that "doublethink" drivvle?

light-waves travel rather slowly in the relative distance from points A and B. there is no god, there is only light that we pick up from the source that has been floating from point B after the light-wave was released. we are looking back in time by looking at "old" light-waves. that is as simple as I am willing to go, because if I make it any more complex, you would say "the bible says..." and I would have to listen to your ignorant ramblings about how you think you are right because of what a silly, out of date book says. do you know what you do with out of date books? you get rid of them for the newer, more up-to-date version.

Really. To me, it just seems like it takes equal or greater amounts of faith to believe that we evolved from bananas, than to believe in God.


we didn't evlove from bannanas, except maybe you since you seem to have the I.Q. of one. faith is what kills reasoning. reasoning saved us in the stone age from predators. with religion, we got down on our knees and worshipped the predator, and got killed for it. reasoning tells us that the predator is about to kill us, so we find a way to defend, or escape from it.

God is outside of time. He did not come from anywhere. He has no beginning and will have no end.


god is able to do that because he doesn't exist anywhere except in the delusions of a madman. prove to me that god exists, and I will be more than happy to devote my life to him. also, crap from the bible won't count because that was written by men, and does nothing but talk about how men occasionally hallucinate and believe what isn't true.

-Blade
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

[quote]But you still need energy for a big bang don't you?


Mage would be much better able to answer this than I would, or someone else, so I'll leave it to them.[/quote]

Okay.
We did have energy for the Big Bang in the form of a singularity. That's what it was. An extremely dense hot (energy) point which then expanded resulting in the universe.

Give me one example of an argument that has change because it has been "disproved."


You've actually already done that for use.
"Yup. People once thought that the earth was flat."


God placed light in between A and B so it appears that is has been there for billions of years.



In other words you believe in a dishonest God?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Also, about the cartoon. "Here are the facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?" You can draw the wrong ones. Fact: Birds and reptiles lay eggs. Conclusion: Reptiles are birds.

Well, early attempts to categorize nature indeed led to things like grouping birds together with bats because after all they both fly. And group lizards, snakes, crocodiles and turtles as reptiles since they all are somehow scaly.
But our methods have improved a lot since then, we have corrected many things, so please don't insult science by saying we're still at the stage of Linnaean cladistic. We know now that flight in birds and bats has evolved separately, we know that 'reptile' is an artificial group since in the light of modern phylogeny it's paraphyletic (which, in essence, is not good), after all crocodiles are closer related to birds than to turtles.

It's ultimately up to you on deciding how to interpret the Bible. But first you need to believe that it's true...

I personally think in order to believe the bible is correct, you first have to believe god exists. After all the bible is only backed up by the one that inspired it; the bible is supposedly gods word, so how could it be the other way around?
sensanaty
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sensanaty
1,094 posts
Nomad

All you do is take our points and then insert some stupid joke or a non answer, or use a fallacy.


Isn't that what 95% of all Christians do?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't egoism considered a sin? If so, then why would God be so egoistic, demanding that everyone believes in if he/she doesn't want eternal suffering. I'd rather burn for all eternity than worship a egoistic maniac.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Isn't that what 95% of all Christians do?

Not necessarily. A large portion of them do, but many are just ignorant to the oppositions' support and point, very, sometimes.

*walks back in* *looks at comment* *facepalms* Nothing more to say to that. I'm out again. Hopefully I won't have to walk back in. *walks out*

Nice emotes.

But yeah. I have to say that there's no point discussing this further with AfterBurner0. I cannot anticipate you being that... what? Dumb? You're intentionally trying to make this as dull, slow-paced and time consuming for other people as possibly could. Unless you bring some valid arguments to bare, that do NOT consist of the previously mentioned:
1) Stupid jokes;
2) Non-answer and,
3) A fallacy.
If you have questions, please apply them in as open a manner as possible so an answer will swing back comfortably. Claiming "victory" over people here only makes you look like a prematurely indulging fool.

Hence the conclusion that you're trolling.

In the meantime, if this is listened to then I just deprived any current discussion on Christianity FTW, which I would hate to see.

What similar lines can be drawn between mythology (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, etc) and religion? I mean, we mays well consider them the same thing but we'll stick with what they're widely regarded as, I guess.

Also, any historical relation? I know there's a few different things in say, the Bible that are directly and clearly related to historical events.

- H
crazyape
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crazyape
1,606 posts
Peasant

Okay, being a Satanist, I will now insert a stupid joke.

After the psychological war between athiests and christians ends, who comes out on top?

Islam, FTW!

Seriously, don't you people have better things to do than argue with children...? o_O

*child*

Both points are retarded, both points are being buzzkill'd.

And, seriously stop arguing.

"When we discuss, we show our intelligence, when we argue, we show our lack thereof" -- Dr. Spock.

How vain it is to sit down and write when you have not stood up to live.

Do yourselves big favors, get lives, perhaps realize that it's not about fact... It's....

A matter of opinion. You can choose to believe that there is a God, or that it's all a bunch of hooey.

To the Athiests, what gives YOU the right to tell people what they should or shouldn't believe?

To the Christians, if your God is so real, why do you feel the need to prove he exists? That speaks of being unsure of yourself. Understndable, considering all you go by is your faith, but still! How can you call yourselves Christians if you doubt what you believe?

To everyone else: Believe what you feel comfortable not defending. It's what you truly believe that counts, not what everyone else tries to say.

Oh, Kasic, Mage, and HahiHa, you're really really doing bad impressions of Friedrich Nietzche.

As for myself... Well, in the words of Wniston Churchill; "I've learned not to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

I'm staying out of this, just wanted to put that out there.

And again at the Logic Trio, Francois de La Rochefoucauld once said, "If we had no faults of our own, we would not take so much pleasure in noticing those of others."

I don't expect anyone to listen to me, just thought I'd put that out there.

Cheers!

crazyape
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crazyape
1,606 posts
Peasant

Do you know what cousins are? You come from your parents. Your parent's siblings give birth to your cousins. You don't come from your cousins, but if you did that would explain a lot...


Almost forgot this....

cousins means related. Very closely related. Also putting that out there.

Cheers, again.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

And you can draw illogical ones.

Don't you think an illogical conclusion will be rejected by colleages or the community?

@crazyape
I'm sorry if our attitude made you think that, but we certainly know we're not flawless. But it's a debate after all, so...

Oh, and what was that thing about Nietzsche?
crazyape
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crazyape
1,606 posts
Peasant

Change it to a dicussion. Shouldn't be an argument. people believe what they choose, and it's a trip through hell trying to convince them otherwise, it's really not worth it. I mean, Athiests... What do you live for? xD Why do you pop other people's bubbles for? It keeps them secure, and that's a good thing. If nobody was religious, nobody would be good just for that reason, and the world would be in chaos. Thank peaceful religions, don't try to undermine them. Just think *IF* heaven and hell were real, wouldn't you rather have a shot at going to heaven? I mean, that's what Christianity is all about. I once questioned a 10-year-old's belief in christianity, and his blind faith was amazing. Seriously, it's a good thing for people to have something to hold onto when they're having bad times, it's hope, y'know? Leave them be. What do Athiests have? Absolutely nothing. When you're having bad fortune, you blame the world, you can't even blame God because of what you believe. Really, just... figure this stuff out, eh?

And, yeah, I'm getting the feeling Mage wants to be the 21st century equivalent of him.... xDDDDDD

Cheers, again.

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