Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism

1) Upraising. We get our morals from what we're taught is right and wrong.

What is right and wrong? How do you know what is truly right and what is truly wrong? You were taught not to steal things. Why? Because it's unfair to the one's you're stealing from? But you'll have no punishment, so why don't you just steal anyway?

Based on the society you live in, certain things are and are not viewed as acceptable.

Why are certain things not acceptable? Where do you get standards as to what is right and what is wrong?

3) Personal reflection. I do not think it is right to cause another person harm or loss.

Why? Because you don't want someone to do it to you? Why don't you want someone to do it you? You don't really believe that life has meaning. So once you die, it's over. Why prolong the inevitable? What difference does it make?

Why would we?

Because you believe that this is the only life you get.

Just because no supreme God is supposedly telling us what is and what is not right or wrong doesn't mean we don't have our own views of what is.

How do you decide what you view to be as right and wrong?

sometimes, we keep the morals that our religion (before we left it) taught us, because they are the only part of the religion we have use for. sometimes, we take what we were taught, and adapt it a little to suit our lives

You still have religious morals? What?

and the rules of society. the last thing is that we just follow the laws of society.

Bingo. What if society declared no punishment for murdering, stealing, ****, abuse, and drug-dealing? Would you be a murdering, stealing, raping, abusive, drug-addict?

because even though god doesn't exist, the govenment still does, and so does their police force. we can do whatever LEGAL thing we want technically, but some people don't really want to due to personal preference.

How do they decide what is legal and what is illegal?

We have different morals, we don't lack them.

How do you decide what your 'different morals' are? And why are they different? Example: There are two people, one says stealing is fine, the other says it's not. What do you do? Wouldn't this cause conflict?

Upbringing, social pressures, traits of empathy likely instilled through evolutionary processes to better ensure our races survival given we are social animals that tend to live in groups. We don't just do what ever we want because doing so can have a negative impact on ourselves. We can do something that benefits just us but harms others around us and because of this empathy we tend to have that in turn can also have a negative affect on us, even if there is a personal gain.

Who cares about our 'race's survival'? You believe that we have no eternal souls, and since we're all going to die eventually. So what is the point of our 'race's survival'?

We don't just do what ever we want because doing so can have a negative impact on ourselves.

Why should you care if something has a negative impact? We're all just walking bags of chemicals that can talk. What's the point?

ive got them from family and school when i was young,
ive got them from family and friends when i was a teen.
ive got them from my family, friends and work when i grow up.

Where did your family and friends get those morals?

How do you decide what your 'different morals' are? And why are they different? Example: There are two people, one says stealing is fine, the other says it's not. What do you do? Wouldn't this cause conflict?

We explained already how we got our morals (we don't 'decide' or 'choose' our morals, you didn't either). They are different because um, they are not the same, not all at least. We may share certain morals with certain groups/religions, but we got them often through a different way than through religion.

Now your example, what are you trying to show? Randomly listing two contradicting statements helps how?
It doesn't cause conflict because of morals that each person has, each person will have their opinion on whether it's bad or not, whether it's bad in general or only in this situation or not.

But you'll have no punishment, so why don't you just steal anyway?

being caught by police, security or a PO'ed owner with a weapon isn't punishment? Just because a punishment doesn't come from a divine source doesn't mean we wouldn't necessarily face punishment. A risk of being caught and punished is still there.

Why are certain things not acceptable? Where do you get standards as to what is right and what is wrong?

I base it on whether something is doing harm or not.

You don't really believe that life has meaning.

I do believe life has meaning, just one handed down by a god. We give our own lives meaning.

Why prolong the inevitable? What difference does it make?

I would get to keep on experiencing things for a longer period of time. The difference can be made for others I leave behind once I am gone.

Because you believe that this is the only life you get.

And that makes it all that more special to make it a good one.

Bingo. What if society declared no punishment for murdering, stealing, ****, abuse, and drug-dealing? Would you be a murdering, stealing, raping, abusive, drug-addict?

No because that's not the only criteria we go by.

How do they decide what is legal and what is illegal?

That can be a whole discussion in itself. Over all it's based on how those things effect society as a whole. At least that should be the how they do it but we often get people trying to enforce their own personal views rather then what would be good for the society.

Example: There are two people, one says stealing is fine, the other says it's not. What do you do? Wouldn't this cause conflict?

Yes that can cause conflict and we see exactly that happening at times.

Who cares about our 'race's survival'? You believe that we have no eternal souls, and since we're all going to die eventually. So what is the point of our 'race's survival'?

Well being part of this race and being somewhat unable to be removed from it I care, Why don't you? Really this sounds more like an issue you have.

On a biological evolutionary level having desires to further the species proves to be a benefit in survival. If you have two members of a group, one with a genetic disposition to further the species and the other who doesn't give a rats ***, who do you think is going to put more energy and be more likely to reproduce and pass their genetic disposition to the next generation?

Where did your family and friends get those morals?

From their family, friends, etc.

What is right and wrong? How do you know what is truly right and what is truly wrong? You were taught not to steal things. Why? Because it's unfair to the one's you're stealing from? But you'll have no punishment, so why don't you just steal anyway?

Personal morals. Stealing something harms someone else, therefor it is bad. See how simple it is to make your own morals?

How to wolves and such know that eating each other is wrong?

Why are certain things not acceptable? Where do you get standards as to what is right and what is wrong?

I make them myself. There is also the &quoter-programed" that comes with being human, being a social animal we would be dead if we had killed each other.

Why? Because you don't want someone to do it to you? Why don't you want someone to do it you? You don't really believe that life has meaning. So once you die, it's over. Why prolong the inevitable? What difference does it make?

If you are told you only get one lobster for the rest of your life, do you say "Well, I only have one!" and throw it on the flour, stomping on it until it is inedible? Most people would go "I better enjoy it then" and savor it, rather than wasting it.

Why does life have meaning to you? What if you found out that you have to eat a bowl of rotten gruel, but once that was over you could have all the lobster you want?

Because you believe that this is the only life you get.

So why in hell would we waste it?

Why are you still alive if you believe you will go to heaven when you die?

How do you decide what you view to be as right and wrong?

Personal morals. The same way you decide what is wright or wrong.

Bingo. What if society declared no punishment for murdering, stealing, ****, abuse, and drug-dealing? Would you be a murdering, stealing, raping, abusive, drug-addict?

Not personally. Would you? Your god didn't say "Don't deal drugs!", or even "Don't ****, don't murder" and in fact gives you a guide on how to **** and pillage like a Christian.

How do they decide what is legal and what is illegal?

It is what the people want to have legal and illegal.

Who cares about our 'race's survival'? You believe that we have no eternal souls, and since we're all going to die eventually. So what is the point of our 'race's survival'?

Why do you care about earth, if you believe that it is only a temporary state? Why wouldn't you yell "I AM THE ANGLE OF DEATH!" while driving through crowded streets and sending people to the paradise you believe in?

Why should you care if something has a negative impact? We're all just walking bags of chemicals that can talk. What's the point?

Why wouldn't we care about our friends and family? Religion has nothing to do with that.

Where did your family and friends get those morals?

From their friends and family.

Which all goes back to being a social animal. It is rare for things like paranah (However you spell it) to brutally murder each other, but why would that be? Does your god give morals to the soulless fish that he cares not for?

but we got them often through a different way than through religion.

I'd like to know what these 'ways' are.

Now your example, what are you trying to show? Randomly listing two contradicting statements helps how?

I'm saying that two people differ in opinions. What will your choice be?

being caught by police, security or a PO'ed owner with a weapon isn't punishment? Just because a punishment doesn't come from a divine source doesn't mean we wouldn't necessarily face punishment. A risk of being caught and punished is still there.

Why should you be punished if you are caught by the police? Because what you were doing was 'wrong'? Why is it wrong? Because they say so?

I base it on whether something is doing harm or not.

What's 'wrong' with doing harm? ...You see, this is the very basis of which God created us. "In the beginning blah blah blah... God created man in His own image." God has no physical nature. God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong. And that is why you do not feel like doing whatever the heck you please. Because you feel that it's wrong.

We give our own lives meaning.

You basically just said "The meaning of life is what life means." Does that make any sense? Not to me it doesn't.

I would get to keep on experiencing things for a longer period of time. The difference can be made for others I leave behind once I am gone.

Why should you make a difference?

And that makes it all that more special to make it a good one.

Well then. Your mom says don't steal the cookie from the cookie tray. You want your life to be good, so you take the cookie... Don't you feel guilty about stealing and disobeying your parents?

No because that's not the only criteria we go by.

Okay, so where else do you get your morals, besides society?

That can be a whole discussion in itself. Over all it's based on how those things effect society as a whole.

Why should we care if it effects society as a whole? This is going in a circle, btw. If life has no meaning for you and we're all just going to die, why prolong the inevitable? Who cares if society collapses?

Yes that can cause conflict and we see exactly that happening at times.

Yup. There sure is a ton of conflict alright. I read an article in the news a while ago that went something like this: Some guy found $10,000 dollars laying around. He decided to stay with it until the proper owner returns. The owner eventually came back and thanked the dude who held his money a thousand times because that $10,000 was all that he had... Now if you were the dude who found the money, would you take it just because your life is the only one you get and you want to make it a good one?

Well being part of this race and being somewhat unable to be removed from it I care, Why don't you? Really this sounds more like an issue you have.

What?

On a biological evolutionary level having desires to further the species proves to be a benefit in survival. If you have two members of a group, one with a genetic disposition to further the species and the other who doesn't give a rats ***, who do you think is going to put more energy and be more likely to reproduce and pass their genetic disposition to the next generation?

Who cares? Why should you care about anything if life has no meaning and no purpose?

From their family, friends, etc.

*sigh* ...So how do the original family and friends decide their morals?

Personal morals. Stealing something harms someone else, therefor it is bad. See how simple it is to make your own morals?

What about the classic, stealing candy from a baby. Why wouldn't you steal it? Candy is physically bad for the child, so would you be doing good by stealing?

How to wolves and such know that eating each other is wrong?

They have no morals. They have instinct. One might argue that humans have instinct as well. But what is human instinct? To steal something because you want it? To murder someone because you don't like them? But this craziness goes all the way back to the fall in the garden of Eden. Man chose to sin, not animals. Animals are victim of circumstance. And besides, animals don't even have eternal souls like humans do. So I don't think that murdering animals is wrong...... but whatever, this is a discussion for another thread.

I make them myself.

So you can make morals like "I think it's morally right to kill someone." Sure go ahead and make all those morals that you'd like.

If you are told you only get one lobster for the rest of your life, do you say "Well, I only have one!" and throw it on the flour, stomping on it until it is inedible? Most people would go "I better enjoy it then" and savor it, rather than wasting it.

Why would most people prolong the inevitable? I wouldn't. Especially if I believed that life had no meaning.

Why does life have meaning to you? What if you found out that you have to eat a bowl of rotten gruel, but once that was over you could have all the lobster you want?

Not sure I understand that analogy.

So why in hell would we waste it?

What do you mean by 'waste it'? Do you mean 'not fulfill our purpose'? Well you don't know what your purpose is... So...

Why are you still alive if you believe you will go to heaven when you die?

Because I was created for the glory of God, and I need to bring others to Him.

Not personally. Would you?

I would do whatever I please, since there is no real punishment.

It is what the people want to have legal and illegal.

Why would they want certain things legal and certain things illegal?

Why do you care about earth, if you believe that it is only a temporary state?

Because converting people to Christ is my goal.
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Well my time runs short to sit at the computer, so I hope I was able to demolish the majority of your ramblings.

What is right and wrong?

I do not believe there are any concrete "rights" or "wrongs." I could think of a situation for anything in which it would be excusable.

Why? Because it's unfair to the one's you're stealing from?

1) It will most likely end in violence if it were to be allowed.
2) I wouldn't want others taking things from me.
3) It's already well established to not do this in almost every culture.

But you'll have no punishment, so why don't you just steal anyway?

What do you mean I'd have no punishment? People go to jail all the time for breaking laws.

Why are certain things not acceptable?

Because that's how the society operates. Kissing on the check is a form of greeting in other places, but if you tried that here you'd most likely at least get yelled at, if not called out for sexual harassment.

Where do you get standards as to what is right and what is wrong?

I personally try to judge everything individually. So, from my own thoughts.

Why? Because you don't want someone to do it to you? Why don't you want someone to do it you?

I wouldn't want someone to take something of mine. I most likely paid for it, or it holds some sort of sentimental value. I know what it would feel like if it was taken for me, and I don't want to cause others those feelings.

You don't really believe that life has meaning. So once you die, it's over. Why prolong the inevitable? What difference does it make?

Where are you getting that Atheism says life has no meaning? All it means is that I don't believe some sort of divine figure exists. That's it. I do believe life has a meaning. That meaning differs between people. I also don't see where you're getting this notion that because I don't believe in an afterlife that would make this life meaningless, as if once I die everything I did suddenly never happened. Not having an afterlife to fall back on makes everything MORE meaningful.

Bingo. What if society declared no punishment for murdering, stealing, ****, abuse, and drug-dealing? Would you be a murdering, stealing, raping, abusive, drug-addict?

No. I don't do any of these things now, and I wouldn't then for the same reasons as now.

How do they decide what is legal and what is illegal?

By what is feasible/fair to have legal/illegal and for the common good of all.

Now, I'd like to address something which I have commonly seen in religious people.

1) (The following capitals/bold are for -extreme- emphasis) NOT HAVING THE SAME BELIEFS AS YOU DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE DON'T VALUE ANYTHING AT ALL.

2) Not having a belief in an afterlife makes the life we have MORE important, not less. It's the only life we're going to get.

3) Just because we won't exist forever doesn't mean that what we do doesn't matter. And you call us arrogant, we're not claiming the universe was made for us, that we'll live forever, that we know the ultimate almighty truth.

4) The "meaning" of life differs from person to person. Just because we don't think there's some ultimate place or law to reach/follow doesn't meaning that we don't have our own purposes.

God has no physical nature. God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong. And that is why you do not feel like doing whatever the heck you please. Because you feel that it's wrong.

Bull****. Plain and simple. If this was true, then everyone would get these feelings and there would be no argument on what's right or wrong.

What about the classic, stealing candy from a baby. Why wouldn't you steal it? Candy is physically bad for the child, so would you be doing good by stealing?

Is it? Why wouldn't your god take it away, then?

They have no morals. They have instinct. One might argue that humans have instinct as well. But what is human instinct? To steal something because you want it? To murder someone because you don't like them? But this craziness goes all the way back to the fall in the garden of Eden. Man chose to sin, not animals. Animals are victim of circumstance. And besides, animals don't even have eternal souls like humans do. So I don't think that murdering animals is wrong...... but whatever, this is a discussion for another thread.

That is not what I said. What I said is that a wolf from wolf pack A will not kill another wolf from wolf pack A, except under certain circumstances. So why would a human from group A kill another human from group A? It harms them and makes the group weaker, harming you.

So you can make morals like "I think it's morally right to kill someone." Sure go ahead and make all those morals that you'd like.

Isn't it? You think so as well, or you wouldn't be Christian. Is it morally right to kill someone if you a soldier? If they are a threat to you or your loved one's well being? I would say yes.

Where do you get your morals? Certainly not from the Bible. If that was true, you would be stoning a lot more people than you are now. Certainly not from god. If that where true, then wouldn't everyone share the same morals? So where in hell do you get your morals?

Why would most people prolong the inevitable? I wouldn't. Especially if I believed that life had no meaning.

Why do you prolong your entrance to heaven, since you apparently hate life so much?

Why would you waste the only lobster you would ever get?

Not sure I understand that analogy.

When you only get one of something, it is invaluable. When you only get one thing, you don't waste it.

If you have infinite things, you waste it like hell.

If you believe in god, then why was Hitler bad? All he did was send people to heaven, and if they went to hell then Yawheh obviously wants them to be in pain, so he was doing his work anyway. From an atheist prospective, he wasted life, a valuable, limited substance that you only get one of. Why would he be bad from a Christian prospective? The Bible even says to kill people who are not of your religion. To stone them, to be more accurate, if I remember correctly.

What do you mean by 'waste it'? Do you mean 'not fulfill our purpose'? Well you don't know what your purpose is... So...

Why would you squander it?

Because I was created for the glory of God, and I need to bring others to Him.

But he isn't on earth, he is in heaven. So why not bring others to heaven, by shooting at them? Don't worry when you send someone to hell, I am sure that would be part of god's plane yes? He would have wanted them to go to hell, or they wouldn't have went, so you would be doing his work anyway. So why not just go on a shooting spree, "Bringing others to god"?

I would do whatever I please, since there is no real punishment.

Then you are a horrible, amoral criminal. The only thing that keeps you good is fear that something bad will happen? In that case, you are a despicable scoundrel and a coward who doesn't deserve paradise. Why should you go to a heaven, if the only thing leading you there is fear?

Why would they want certain things legal and certain things illegal?

To form a more perfect union? To establish justice, and insure domestic tranquility, for us and our proprietaries? For the good of everyone, and to help the light of life shine longer and brighter?

Because converting people to Christ is my goal.

The only thing keeping you alive is your religion?

In that case, you are not only a scoundrel and a coward, but a blind one as well who can't see any of the wonderful things earth has to offer.

Well my time runs short to sit at the computer, so I hope I was able to demolish the majority of your ramblings.

Ha! Only one as deluded as yourself would even consider our "ramblings" defeated, anyone with half a brain could see that you are a foolish coward.

I'd like to know what these 'ways' are.

Many of us explained those 'ways' in our first response to you on this subject.

I'm saying that two people differ in opinions. What will your choice be?

It would depend on the situation.

Why should you be punished if you are caught by the police? Because what you were doing was 'wrong'? Why is it wrong? Because they say so?

For the police it's because it's their job. As for the rest of your question here read over what's already been said on why we establish such laws.

What's 'wrong' with doing harm? ...You see, this is the very basis of which God created us. "In the beginning blah blah blah... God created man in His own image." God has no physical nature. God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong. And that is why you do not feel like doing whatever the heck you please. Because you feel that it's wrong.

What's wrong with it is that what it causes is damage.

As for what your fairy tale, no God didn't create us with a sense of right and wrong since we didn't posses knowledge of good and evil. That was only gained after eating a magic fruit that they weren't suppose to eat.

You basically just said "The meaning of life is what life means." Does that make any sense? Not to me it doesn't.

No that's not what I said at all. I said the meaning is what we make of it. There isn't really a set meaning. For instance one thing that brings meaning, a sense of purpose to my life is caring for my birds. That of course could be completely meaningless to you. This is a meaning I gave my to my own life.

Why should you make a difference?

Why shouldn't I? If I can be of benefit then good, I've improved the well being of my species helping to no only further my own personal meaning to life but to fulfill my biological drives.

*sigh* ...So how do the original family and friends decide their morals?

Go back to what I was saying about how morality can come from evolutionary development. For a socially bonded family structure to form we would have needed to develop these moral imperatives first.

Well then. Your mom says don't steal the cookie from the cookie tray. You want your life to be good, so you take the cookie... Don't you feel guilty about stealing and disobeying your parents?

Yeah some kids actually would, what the hell is your point here?

Okay, so where else do you get your morals, besides society?

Again go back and actually read what we have posted, this asking a question to something already answered one page back that you likely already saw is annoying and makes you look obtuse.

Why should we care if it effects society as a whole? This is going in a circle, btw. If life has no meaning for you and we're all just going to die, why prolong the inevitable? Who cares if society collapses?

Now you're resorting to fallacies. I never said life has no meaning, I said we give our own lives meaning, beyond that there isn't really any meaning. Can you comprehend the difference there?

As for your question on why I care if it effects society is a completely different question to the one I was answering here. One I have already pretty much given my answer to in "why would I care about the human race surviving".

I'm going to just stop right here because it seems pretty clear at this point you really don't give a **** about what answer we give. You just seem to want to tell us your questions and try and lead things to a point your not going to reach, without any interest what so ever in understanding our side of it.

However I will leave you with this.

Well my time runs short to sit at the computer, so I hope I was able to demolish the majority of your ramblings.

You

God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong.

Care to justify the crusades?

I'd like to know what these 'ways' are.

Usually personal experience of reciprocation. You take someone's toy. Later, someone takes your toy. You feel bad. You realize that it's wrong to take toys. You hit someone. Someone hits you. You realize it's bad to hit.

I do not believe there are any concrete "rights" or "wrongs." I could think of a situation for anything in which it would be excusable.

Then you'll just do whatever you please because it can be excusable? So if it's excusable once it should be fine all the time, right? And think of a situation where raping is excusable.

1) It will most likely end in violence if it were to be allowed.
2) I wouldn't want others taking things from me.
3) It's already well established to not do this in almost every culture.

1) Are you implying that you believe violence to be wrong? If so, why do you believe it to be wrong?
2) Why? You could just steal right back from them.
3) Why is it already well established if nothing is really right or wrong and if morals differ from person-to-person? If morals differ from person-to-person as you say they do, then that means that one person, with a specific set of morals, laid down these 'well established laws'? What made them so great that they could decide what morals everyone else has? If you're thinking "Well what made God so great that he could choose morals?" My scenario is assuming that God does not exist. So who laid down these well established morals, and why are they not subject to change?

What do you mean I'd have no punishment? People go to jail all the time for breaking laws

I meant that you believe you have no eternal punishment. And sure people go to jail for breaking laws. But why do these laws exist? Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

Kissing on the check is a form of greeting in other places, but if you tried that here you'd most likely at least get yelled at, if not called out for sexual harassment.

So who is right? You might say, "Whoever obeys the customs of that society." What if a society gave no punishment/jail-time for murder? Would you go around murdering everyone?

I personally try to judge everything individually. So, from my own thoughts.

I thought you said you got your morals from society.............

I wouldn't want someone to take something of mine. I most likely paid for it, or it holds some sort of sentimental value. I know what it would feel like if it was taken for me, and I don't want to cause others those feelings.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

Where are you getting that Atheism says life has no meaning?

Conversation between Christian and Atheist about life's meaning:

Christian: "What do you believe is life's meaning?"
Atheist: "Survival, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness in general.
Christian: "So does that mean you'll steal 1 billion dollars from someone to make yourself happy? And stealing that money is fine because it 'fulfills your meaning?" ........

Not having an afterlife to fall back on makes everything MORE meaningful.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless. A hopeless pile of hogwash. The goal of Christians is to "go out and make disciples of all nations" as Jesus commanded.

No. I don't do any of these things now, and I wouldn't then for the same reasons as now.

If society declared no punishment for 'crimes', you wouldn't go out and do those 'crimes' for what reasons? I thought you got your morals from society. So if society goes nuts, why don't you follow it?

By what is feasible/fair to have legal/illegal and for the common good of all.

'The common good of all' is...

NOT HAVING THE SAME BELIEFS AS YOU DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE DON'T VALUE ANYTHING AT ALL.

Alrighty then... and why do you value things?

Not having a belief in an afterlife makes the life we have MORE important, not less. It's the only life we're going to get.

And so we have come back around the circle, so I shall repeat my original question: Why don't you do whatever you please?

Just because we won't exist forever doesn't mean that what we do doesn't matter.

Then what does matter? What do you believe is your meaning?

The "meaning" of life differs from person to person. Just because we don't think there's some ultimate place or law to reach/follow doesn't meaning that we don't have our own purposes.

I'm curious. What do you believe your purpose is?

If this was true, then everyone would get these feelings and there would be no argument on what's right or wrong.

Everyone DOES get these feelings! That's why we don't go around murdering people!
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Is it? Why wouldn't your god take it away, then?

You didn't answer my question. Would you take the candy because it's bad for the child and because you want to eat it? It's a 'yes or no' question.

That is not what I said. What I said is that a wolf from wolf pack A will not kill another wolf from wolf pack A, except under certain circumstances. So why would a human from group A kill another human from group A? It harms them and makes the group weaker, harming you.

If you believe in nothing, just as the animals do, then I'm not sure. How are you supposed to tell right from wrong?

Isn't it? You think so as well, or you wouldn't be Christian. Is it morally right to kill someone if you a soldier? If they are a threat to you or your loved one's well being? I would say yes.

I'm not sure your words made perfect sense to me, but... If you are a Christian soldier, you should protect your country/friends/family by murdering, only as a last resort. Because some of those enemies would take you life, or the lives' of you're fellow soldiers, without question. God will also forgive you of murder if you ask him.

Where do you get your morals? Certainly not from the Bible. If that was true, you would be stoning a lot more people than you are now.

I'm not completely up-to-snuff on my Bible studies, but I think that stoning was part of old jewish laws. But like I said, I'm not a certified Bible scholar or anything.

Certainly not from god. If that where true, then wouldn't everyone share the same morals? So where in hell do you get your morals?

Everyone does not share the same morals, if we did, would we be discussing this? Christians get their morals from the Jesus and his doctrine.

Why do you prolong your entrance to heaven, since you apparently hate life so much?

Because Jesus commands Christians to go make disciples. And I don't hate life, and I never said that I did.

Why would you waste the only lobster you would ever get?

Because that lobster is temporary and meaningless. Ernest Hemmingway was an atheist who killed himself because he could find no meaning. He was smart enough to not prolong the inevitable, but no smart enough to see the gospel.

When you only get one thing, you don't waste it.

Bingo. Back to my original question. Why don't you go and do whatever you please?

If you believe in god, then why was Hitler bad? All he did was send people to heaven

Adolf Hitler was bad because he murdered millions of people, which is against Christian morals.

and if they went to hell then Yawheh obviously wants them to be in pain, so he was doing his work anyway.

God desires no one to suffer. Why do you think he sent his only son to save us?

The Bible even says to kill people who are not of your religion. To stone them, to be more accurate, if I remember correctly.

Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations. I believe it was jewish law that demanded the stoning of others.

So why not bring others to heaven, by shooting at them?

*facedesk* Shooting someone does not make them go to heaven.

Don't worry when you send someone to hell, I am sure that would be part of god's plane yes?

No, it is your choice to reject, or believe in God.

He would have wanted them to go to hell, or they wouldn't have went, so you would be doing his work anyway. So why not just go on a shooting spree, "Bringing others to god"?

*double facedesk* Shooting someone does not bring them to God.

Then you are a horrible, amoral criminal.

No. I would be one who takes full advantage of life, just as you say someone should.

The only thing that keeps you good is fear that something bad will happen?

I was assuming that I were an atheist, and that the laws of society have been abolished. Then I would to whatever I please.

To form a more perfect union? To establish justice, and insure domestic tranquility, for us and our proprietaries? For the good of everyone, and to help the light of life shine longer and brighter?

Why should we help the light of life shine brighter? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right?

The only thing keeping you alive is your religion?

Probably. If I were to blind to see meaning, I would probably kill myself.

Only one as deluded as yourself

you are a foolish coward.

Childish name-calling is the first sign that is shown when one is losing a debate. You are lucky I do not take offense to this. But I forgive you for calling me names. Or are you not sorry?

Many of us explained those 'ways' in our first response to you on this subject.

And I responded to those 'ways'

It would depend on the situation.

Why?

As for the rest of your question here read over what's already been said on why we establish such laws.

Read over my responses.

What's wrong with it is that what it causes is damage.

Who cares? As long as you are pleased and you get the most out of your life, right?

As for what your fairy tale, no God didn't create us with a sense of right and wrong since we didn't posses knowledge of good and evil. That was only gained after eating a magic fruit that they weren't suppose to eat.

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

No that's not what I said at all. I said the meaning is what we make of it. There isn't really a set meaning. For instance one thing that brings meaning, a sense of purpose to my life is caring for my birds. That of course could be completely meaningless to you. This is a meaning I gave my to my own life.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

Why shouldn't I?

Because you believe that everything is temporary. You can only make a temporary difference that will temporarily benefit a temporary society.

For a socially bonded family structure to form we would have needed to develop these moral imperatives first.

What if your family was white and you decided that it was morally fine to kill black people? Does that make it right just because those are morals that have been developed?

Yeah some kids actually would, what the hell is your point here?

I'm saying that would you take that cookie and deliberately disobey? What about $10? $100? $100,000? Would you take $100,000 dollars just to satisfy yourself?

Again go back and actually read what we have posted, this asking a question to something already answered one page back that you likely already saw is annoying and makes you look obtuse.

Go back and read my responses.........

Now you're resorting to fallacies. I never said life has no meaning, I said we give our own lives meaning, beyond that there isn't really any meaning. Can you comprehend the difference there?

You give your own lives meaning? Sounds to me like you just said "The meaning of life is what life means."

You

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

@afterburner0- life is what you make it, not what your silly notion of a god makes it.

Why should you be punished if you are caught by the police? Because what you were doing was 'wrong'? Why is it wrong? Because they say so?

that, and because of the fact that you have damaged the livelihood of another member of your kind. simple as that.

What's 'wrong' with doing harm? ...You see, this is the very basis of which God created us. "In the beginning blah blah blah... God created man in His own image." God has no physical nature. God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong. And that is why you do not feel like doing whatever the heck you please. Because you feel that it's wrong.

if your god gave us a sense of right and wrong, why do so many of us not believe him? afterall, your religion says its wrong to believe anyone other than god, or not believe in him at all. free will my ***, right and wrong would still mean that we would believe that your god existed.

You basically just said "The meaning of life is what life means." Does that make any sense? Not to me it doesn't.

what we are saying is that you shouldn't let an outdated belief make major life descisions for you. we are defining what life means to us. simple as that.

Okay, so where else do you get your morals, besides society?

society covers most, if not all, of the bases. so really your god isn't needed.

Why should we care if it effects society as a whole? This is going in a circle, btw. If life has no meaning for you and we're all just going to die, why prolong the inevitable? Who cares if society collapses?

we care because it is our only life, and we need to make the best of it. your religion tells you that this life is meaningless, we are saying that life has meaning. see where your beliefs fall short?

They have no morals. They have instinct. One might argue that humans have instinct as well. But what is human instinct? To steal something because you want it? To murder someone because you don't like them? But this craziness goes all the way back to the fall in the garden of Eden. Man chose to sin, not animals. Animals are victim of circumstance. And besides, animals don't even have eternal souls like humans do. So I don't think that murdering animals is wrong...... but whatever, this is a discussion for another thread.

morals are instinct. we don't steal because our instinct tells us the most likely outcome of the situation. just like animals. no souls required.

So you can make morals like "I think it's morally right to kill someone." Sure go ahead and make all those morals that you'd like.

no, we never said that. your god sure did durring the crusades, and many other events in the bible. so go ahead, kill in the name of your false notion of beliefs.

Why would most people prolong the inevitable? I wouldn't. Especially if I believed that life had no meaning.

we make the meaning, and our meanings tend to be better than "get people to share my beliefs any means necessary"

What do you mean by 'waste it'? Do you mean 'not fulfill our purpose'? Well you don't know what your purpose is... So...

our genetic purpose is to make sure that our survival as a species continues. our subconcious purpose is to maintain homeostasis, and our individual purpose is to live life to the fullest as we see it. your god wants to cut us off in each of those if you look at both the bible, and history, very carefully.

Because I was created for the glory of God, and I need to bring others to Him.

since there is no god, you are wasting your life.

would do whatever I please, since there is no real punishment.

then you are as emotionally mature as a child. children do whatever they want, but only don't do certain things because they fear punishment. your religion is doing the exact same thing to you, turning you into a child/sheep/thrall. you are becoming a puppet, and your dances have no meaning in the long run.

Because converting people to Christ is my goal.

I don't think you really realize the gravity of what you just said. you basically just forefeited you life for a meaningless and unreachable goal. good luck with the rest of your wasted life.

-Blade

Go back and read my responses.........

You haven't actually given any responses addressing what we have said. You have asked questions to things we already responded to.

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

An insult would be to tell you what's been going through my mind about you. That was pointing out the obvious in a satirical way.

As for this being a debate, as it still seems you have no interest in hearing us. So I have to wonder about this one way debate. You repeatedly asked where we get our morals, which we told you but you keep asking. You have tried to tell us what our position is on things such as with "atheists have no meaning to life" and have even go as far as to try and put words in our mouth. You continue to ask why we don't just do what ever we like regardless of harm, which we answered. You have not refuted a thing there and seem to be ignoring what we are saying to favor your own stereotype.

dang, my post is out of date. back to work:

I meant that you believe you have no eternal punishment. And sure people go to jail for breaking laws. But why do these laws exist? Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

because, like we covered earlier, it only serves as a detriment to our species to kill off a good source of genes.

So who is right? You might say, "Whoever obeys the customs of that society." What if a society gave no punishment/jail-time for murder? Would you go around murdering everyone?

no, because it would still serve as a detriment to our species, which our instincts tell us to preseve our species.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

because if we do, then we would only shorten our life, or make it as meaningless as your religion when we get life in jail.

Christian: "What do you believe is life's meaning?"
Atheist: "Survival, entertainment, and the pursuit of happiness in general.
Christian: "So does that mean you'll steal 1 billion dollars from someone to make yourself happy? And stealing that money is fine because it 'fulfills your meaning?" ........

you again seem to be missing the point. morals don't come from religion. society made it first, but religion took the credit. we wouldn't steal because extending our species is our ultimate goal. our happiness is only a side-objective that is still governed by society's laws.

*facedesk* Shooting someone does not make them go to heaven.

religious doctrine (if you actually paid attention) says otherwise.

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless. A hopeless pile of hogwash. The goal of Christians is to "go out and make disciples of all nations" as Jesus commanded.

sorry, but that also applies with religion. everything you did has no real meaning in the eyes of god, who only wants more thralls to feed his ego. for he is indeed "a jealous god".

Probably. If I were to blind to see meaning, I would probably kill myself.

and that is why we all call you a fool. look over it again, and see if you can't figure out why.

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

but they had no morals, until they ate the fruit, so they wouldn't know that they were doing wrong. argument disproven.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

how can you not see this, or understand this. his has more meaning than yours. his will extend his life, while yours will bring you an early death (because you believe that the ultimate goal is to die and go to a false land).

Why should we help the light of life shine brighter? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right?

we are, but we are still obligated by instinct to preserve the survival of said talking meat-bags.

Because you believe that everything is temporary. You can only make a temporary difference that will temporarily benefit a temporary society.

still beneficial, instead of your god promoting massive slaughtering to sate his desire to be loved.

What if your family was white and you decided that it was morally fine to kill black people? Does that make it right just because those are morals that have been developed?

society says otherwise, and would lock our parents away. your god said it was okay to mistreat black people, if my memory is correct.

'm saying that would you take that cookie and deliberately disobey? What about $10? $100? $100,000? Would you take $100,000 dollars just to satisfy yourself?

no, I wouldn't. you are thinking that because we have only one life, that we should just run rampant and do whatever we want for as long as possible. it doesn't work like that, but your religion's brainwashing forces you to think that is the case without your lonely god. that is why we consider you foolish.

Insults get you nowhere in debates.

just like how your ignorance will get you nowhere. this isn't a debate, it's us trying to educate a man who covers his ears as goes "nananananananana" to prevent our points from hitting home.

-Blade

Then you'll just do whatever you please because it can be excusable? So if it's excusable once it should be fine all the time, right?

Sigh. No. Stop reading into people's posts what you want to see there. No one has said this.

And think of a situation where raping is excusable.

In a society where strength is valued and mates are chosen by this, **** would be a form of courting. Taking the other by force would indicate that you have more strength than they do. Since this would be the commonly accepted way of courting/mating, this wouldn't be wrong.

1) Are you implying that you believe violence to be wrong? If so, why do you believe it to be wrong?
2) Why? You could just steal right back from them.

No. I'm implying nothing in of itself. I'm saying that violence in this case is unnecessary. While we could go forever in a circle of give and take, this would be a colossal waste of time.

3) Why is it already well established if nothing is really right or wrong and if morals differ from person-to-person?

Tradition/proven to work well.

Why is there a law against murder? Because it's wrong? Why is it wrong?

Because if we all just went out killing each other, we wouldn't get much down now would we? It would kill off our species.

I thought you said you got your morals from society.............

I said that's one of the 3 ways/places we get them from.

Why? You believe that you only live once. So why not steal and make yourself happy?

Because it wouldn't make me happy. I'd be thrown in jail. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

If you don't believe in an afterlife, that makes everything you do on earth, useless.

How do you figure that.

'The common good of all' is...

The common good is the common good...the environment where each person has a fair chance to live a happy life...

Alrighty then... and why do you value things?

For the exact same reason you do. Because they have meaning to us. We just don't value the same things always.

Why don't you do whatever you please?

I have already answered this, and so have the others.

Everyone DOES get these feelings! That's why we don't go around murdering people!

1) In born instinct in this case.
2) Sociopaths aren't born with this.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'm sick of answering your same questions over and over. All of us have already told you why we don't just go out and do whatever whim we want, on how we don't think life is meaningless, and our own personal stances on where we get morals from.

Either ask something new, make a new stand, or stop ignoring our posts so you can pretend to be above us by strawmanning our argument to say something which we aren't.

I'll leave with this statement: Atheists are more moral than Theists because we do what is "right" because it is the best choice of action, and not out of fear of punishment. Theists do what is right because they're scared to be punished. This is the lowest level of moral reasoning and the equivalent of a 5 year old.

God desires no one to suffer. Why do you think he sent his only son to save us?

Then why did He send Jesus to suffer?

Because Jesus commands Christians to go make disciples.

Is this justification for the Crusades?

But they still had a choice. To eat the fruit and disobey God, or to not eat the fruit. They had a moral choice to make.

Without knowledge of the consequences, there wasn't much incentive not to eat it. It's like telling a kid not to touch the stove because they'll get burned, when the kid's never been burned before. They'll touch it wondering what the heck you were talking about. Also, since God's all knowing, he knew what choice they'd make, so he set them up for failure from the start.

You believe that you're ultimate goal in life is to care for a few birds that could normally take care of themselves in the wild?

You believe that an all-powerful being decided to create you with the sole purpose of being his preaching slave instead of simply writing "I am God, I exist" in the sky?

God created us with a basic understanding of right and wrong.

Adolf Hitler was bad because he murdered millions of people, which is against Christian morals.

Gotta love contradictions. By your logic, if God made him with right and wrong born into him, and he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die and God was putting him in power for such a noble purpose, then therefore God told him that genocide was the right thing to do.