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thepyro222

2,150 posts

Peasant

Posted March 29, '11 5:11am UTC

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.\r\n     I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

4,668 Replies

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 7, '12 3:52pm UTC

You are jumping to conclusions, I never used it to prove Jesus existed. How was the Roman Empire not the most powerful? They controlled the most land out of any Empire in history,

Read your history before spouting facts.

The Roman army never numbered more than half a million, woefully smaller than many other armies.

And no, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm merely taking the statements you state as ''facts'' and rubbishing them.

I never stated just because the Empire is X that Jesus existed.

The Roman Empire, the most powerful, intelligent, and longest lasting form of government and Empire ever created on Earth lists these records, Peter, one of the main writers of the New Testament of the Bible, was even a Roman citizen, heck, even Jesus was a Roman citizen. Roman Centurions kept personal records, Pontius Pilate, the Rome's city governor, mentioned as Theophilus in the Bible, Titus Sabinus is his Roman name, kept records.

Your first premise was that the Empire has such and such traits; your second statement was that an unintelligent human was doing the recording, simply because he was part of the Roman Empire. If you didn't intend to make such an argument why even bother making the first premise and then trying to cover your back rather pathetically later on? Take a good long look at what you were trying to say, before twisting it around.

[quote]You are jumping to conclusions, I never used it to prove Jesus existed. How was the Roman Empire not the most powerful? They controlled the most land out of any Empire in history, [/quote]\r\n\r\nRead your [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires]history[/url] before spouting facts. \r\n\r\nThe Roman army [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_army]never numbered more[/url] than half a million, woefully smaller than many other armies. \r\n\r\nAnd no, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I'm merely taking the statements you state as ''facts'' and rubbishing them. \r\n\r\n[quote] I never stated just because the Empire is X that Jesus existed.[/quote]\r\n\r\n[quote]The Roman Empire, the most powerful, intelligent, and longest lasting form of government and Empire ever created on Earth lists these records, Peter, one of the main writers of the New Testament of the Bible, was even a Roman citizen, heck, even Jesus was a Roman citizen. Roman Centurions kept personal records, Pontius Pilate, the Rome's city governor, mentioned as Theophilus in the Bible, Titus Sabinus is his Roman name, kept records.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYour first premise was that the Empire has such and such traits; your second statement was that an unintelligent human was doing the recording, simply because he was part of the Roman Empire. If you didn't intend to make such an argument why even bother making the first premise and then trying to cover your back rather pathetically later on? Take a good long look at what you were trying to say, before twisting it around.

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nichodemus

14,991 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 7, '12 3:57pm UTC

that an unintelligent human

that an intelligent human*

Aside from the puerile argument that since the government in general was doing a good job, hence the minor officials had to be doing so too, there's also another point that not all the people who allegedly wrote accounts about Jesus weren't government officials, if we were to even use the irrational previous argument. And yet another point; keeping records doesn't necessarily mean good records, history is littered with lies and deceptions left by writers.

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Dubness2

389 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 4:23pm UTC

Read your history before spouting facts.

Find a more efficient source before posting. Wikipedia doesn't host all the correct data in the world. .edu or .gov could suffice.
And you still never "rubbished" the fact they were the longest lasting. But this is getting off subject, that's my fault.

Your first premise was that the Empire has such and such traits; your second statement was that an unintelligent human was doing the recording, simply because he was part of the Roman Empire. If you didn't intend to make such an argument why even bother making the first premise and then trying to cover your back rather pathetically later on? Take a good long look at what you were trying to say, before twisting it around.

There ya go assuming again. I said "an unintelligent Human wasn't doing the recording" as MageGrayWolf posted about how there was a possibility of incorrect date posted from incompetent people. PlEASE read all before posting.

there's also another point that not all the people who allegedly wrote accounts about Jesus weren't government officials, if we were to even use the irrational previous argument. And yet another point; keeping records doesn't necessarily mean good records, history is littered with lies and deceptions left by writers.

I am aware of this, there are many accounts of Jesus's existence on Earth and not only in the Bible, though the Bible considered by many History professors as being a History book, I was merely stating that we should take into account some credible sources of recording there. Whether he was divine or not is up for debate. But, I can't argue with you on that last point. There are indeed many lies and it takes historians forever to pick through the lies and deceptions to accurately gather data.

[quote]Read your history before spouting facts. [/quote]\r\nFind a more efficient source before posting. Wikipedia doesn't host all the correct data in the world. .edu or .gov could suffice.\r\nAnd you still never "rubbished" the fact they were the longest lasting. But this is getting off subject, that's my fault.\r\n\r\n[quote]Your first premise was that the Empire has such and such traits; your second statement was that an unintelligent human was doing the recording, simply because he was part of the Roman Empire. If you didn't intend to make such an argument why even bother making the first premise and then trying to cover your back rather pathetically later on? Take a good long look at what you were trying to say, before twisting it around.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThere ya go assuming again. I said "an unintelligent Human wasn't doing the recording" as MageGrayWolf posted about how there was a possibility of incorrect date posted from incompetent people. PlEASE read all before posting.\r\n\r\n[quote]there's also another point that not all the people who allegedly wrote accounts about Jesus weren't government officials, if we were to even use the irrational previous argument. And yet another point; keeping records doesn't necessarily mean good records, history is littered with lies and deceptions left by writers.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI am aware of this, there are many accounts of Jesus's existence on Earth and not only in the Bible, though the Bible considered by many History professors as being a History book, I was merely stating that we should take into account some credible sources of recording there. Whether he was divine or not is up for debate. But, I can't argue with you on that last point. There are indeed many lies and it takes historians forever to pick through the lies and deceptions to accurately gather data.

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Dubness2

389 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 4:31pm UTC

I would like to continue this conversation later! I have to go unfortunately, I'll be back around this evening EST to continue though.

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goumas13

4,752 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 7, '12 5:05pm UTC

there are many accounts of Jesus's existence on Earth and not only in the Bible

Sorry mate, but there is just not one single non-Christian document written before 93 CE that mentions any "Jesus". And, as you said yourself the first years of the Roman Empire are one of the best-documented epochs of ancient history.
Y'know, in all likelihood the Romans kept very good records, yet somehow a holy leader of the Jewish people by the name of "Jesus" is mentioned nowhere.
Don't you find that a tad weird?

though the Bible considered by many History professors as being a History book

So what? The fact that the Bible is considered by some a history book doesn't really mean anything. It just doesn't change the fact that the Bible is primarily and fundamentally a book of religion.
The Bible is simply not meant to be a history book, no matter what its not a text book.

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deathbewithyou

534 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 5:26pm UTC

Sorry mate, but there is just not one single non-Christian document written before 93 CE that mentions any "Jesus".

Can you prove that? It's odd though, because some atheists who study history have found mention of him other than the bible. Can't forget some of those jews as some have written about him, but they don't believe him to be the son of God.

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AfterBurner0

896 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 5:40pm UTC

Here are my responses to the bunch of arguments on page 344:

You repeatedly asked where we get our morals, which we told you but you keep asking.

You told me that you come up with your own morals and that you also get your morals from society. How do you get your morals from two different places?

You have tried to tell us what our position is on things such as with "atheists have no meaning to life" and have even go as far as to try and put words in our mouth.

Okay then. What do you believe your meaning is? And I don't want any "We give our own lives meaning."

You continue to ask why we don't just do what ever we like regardless of harm, which we answered.

Here's how it was:

You: "The meaning of life is to bring entertainment to ourselves, and to savor our only life."
Me: "So why don't you steal from other people to bring yourself happiness?"
You: "Because that does other people harm."
Me: "I thought your meaning was to make yourself happy. So why don't you fulfill your meaning by stealing from people?" ...........

because, like we covered earlier, it only serves as a detriment to our species to kill off a good source of genes.

And... Why does our species need to survive? What do you believe is the meaning of life?

no, because it would still serve as a detriment to our species, which our instincts tell us to preseve our species.

Why must we preserve our species?

because if we do, then we would only shorten our life, or make it as meaningless as your religion when we get life in jail.

Why would you get life in jail? Why is stealing wrong if the meaning of life is supposed to be to make yourself happy?

you again seem to be missing the point. morals don't come from religion. society made it first

Why? Tell me why society made stealing wrong. Where did they get their moral basis? People were racist during the civil war. People wanted black people as slaves and some people didn't. But why did society decide to demolish slavery? Because they felt that it was morally wrong. But slavery helped people because the slaves did work for free. So even though slavery was doing no real harm, why was it abolished?

we wouldn't steal because extending our species is our ultimate goal.

Extending our species to where?

religious doctrine (if you actually paid attention) says otherwise.

Okay lemme give you the breakdown here. You think that, from my beliefs point of view, when someone dies, they go to heaven or hell. When they go to heaven, that's a good thing because it's better than earth. You also think that we think that it was God's plan for someone to go to hell when they die. You think that by killing someone, we would be doing good either way. Well you're wrong about what we think. If someone is a Christian, they should not just immediately die, just so they can go to heaven because they still have work to do on earth. They still need to advance the gospel that is why Christians should not just die immediately. God's plan is not for people to go to hell. He loves us, and sent His only son to save us. It is a Christian's job to lead those people to Christ, it is not a Christian's job to shoot all unbelievers.

sorry, but that also applies with religion. everything you did has no real meaning in the eyes of god

As I just explained above, it is the duty of Christians to bring people to Christ, that is our meaning.

for he is indeed "a jealous god".

He is jealous if you make idols of something else. He wants you to worship Him because He is the only way to heaven. You might say: "Wow. A god who wants all the attention for himself sure seems selfish." Example: You are terribly ill and I am a good friend of yours. You are taking the wrong medication for your illness. I have the right medication. I want you to take the correct choice because you are my friend.

and that is why we all call you a fool.

Well then you're lucky I'm one who is quick to forgive.

look over it again, and see if you can't figure out why.

I'm afraid I can't figure out why I shouldn't kill myself if I saw that life has no meaning.

but they had no morals, until they ate the fruit, so they wouldn't know that they were doing wrong.

Yes they had morals. They were given direct instruction to not eat the fruit. Adam and Eve chose to disobey direct instruction. They believed that there would be no punishment if they ate the fruit because satan lied, and said that there would be no punishment.

how can you not see this, or understand this. his has more meaning than yours. his will extend his life,

How will caring for birds extend his life span.

(because you believe that the ultimate goal is to die and go to a false land).

Thank you for putting the wrong words in my mouth. But the goal of Christians is to bring others to Christ. The goal is not to die.

we are, but we are still obligated by instinct to preserve the survival of said talking meat-bags.

Why? Why must we preserve our species?

still beneficial,

Beneficial to what? Your ultimate goal? I'd still like to know what you believe that your ultimate goal is.

society says otherwise

Why?

your god said it was okay to mistreat black people, if my memory is correct.

Your memory is 100% faulty.

you are thinking that because we have only one life, that we should just run rampant and do whatever we want for as long as possible. it doesn't work like that

Why doesn't it work like that? If your meaning was to bring happiness to yourself, you should take the money.
-

Sigh. No. Stop reading into people's posts what you want to see there. No one has said this.

You didn't answer the questions....

In a society where strength is valued and mates are chosen by this, **** would be a form of courting. Taking the other by force would indicate that you have more strength than they do. Since this would be the commonly accepted way of courting/mating, this wouldn't be wrong.

Okay. So why would it be fine in only certain societies and not others? Because morals differ from person to person? So who is right? What choice would you make? The choice that was acceptable by that society? What if murder was acceptable by that society? Would you go around killing everyone?

I'm saying that violence in this case is unnecessary.

Why is it unnecessary? Because it's wrong?

While we could go forever in a circle of give and take, this would be a colossal waste of time.

Well making yourself happy is your meaning to life, right? So how is fulfilling your meaning in a big circle, a waste of time? If it's your meaning, why is it a waste?

Because if we all just went out killing each other, we wouldn't get much down now would we? It would kill off our species.

What's wrong with our species going extinct? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right? So what's the point of survival?

I said that's one of the 3 ways/places we get them from.

What if the three ways contradict each other? What if you believe stealing is wrong, while society says it's not?

Because it wouldn't make me happy. I'd be thrown in jail. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Please read the following words a thousand times: If there were no laws, would you steal to make yourself happy? Because now, in this hypothetical situation, there is no jail. Now that there is no jail, stealing would make you happy, right? So why are there laws that say "no stealing" if, without laws, stealing would make you happy?

How do you figure that.

I figure that like this.

Me: "What is the meaning of life?"
You: "To make myself happy, and to continue the human race."
Me: "Why do you want to continue the race of a bunch of temporary, talking, meat-bags? What good does our survival do?" ........

The common good is the common good...the environment where each person has a fair chance to live a happy life...

A happy life that has no goal. Nothing to be accomplished other than your own happiness. That seems a little selfish to me...

For the exact same reason you do. Because they have meaning to us.

I don't value things. I value the eternal souls of people. Things have no meaning to me. Things may have meaning to you, but one day, all your things will be rusted, rotten, broken, forgotten, misplaced, or stolen. Even our bodies will die and decompose. Eternal souls are the only things that matter.

1) In born instinct in this case.
2) Sociopaths aren't born with this.

In-created morals in this case.
Sociopaths are probably atheists who actually realize that everything is temporary and so they actually go and do whatever they please.

All of us have already told you why we don't just go out and do whatever whim we want, on how we don't think life is meaningless, and our own personal stances on where we get morals from.

Perhaps you could go over your reasons one more time. And make it clear and concise.
-

Then why did He send Jesus to suffer?

To save us. Wouldn't you die to save the entire human race?

Is this justification for the Crusades?

Sigh. Whatever 'Christians' participated in the crusades, were hypocrites. The Bible says 'do not murder' and they go out and murder. They are hypocrites.

It's like telling a kid not to touch the stove because they'll get burned, when the kid's never been burned before. They'll touch it wondering what the heck you were talking about.

That kid knew it was wrong to disobey.

You believe that an all-powerful being decided to create you with the sole purpose of being his preaching slave

I'm not a slave. It was my choice to live for God.

instead of simply writing "I am God, I exist" in the sky?

Let's say you wrote a 500 page novel. You ask me to read it because you spent countless hours on it. But I just skip to the end, and waste all your work. God doesn't want us to skip to the end, He wants us to actually put faith in Him.

Gotta love contradictions. By your logic, if God made him with right and wrong born into him, and he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die and God was putting him in power for such a noble purpose, then therefore God told him that genocide was the right thing to do.

Wrongamundo. "And he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die...." Gotta love fallacies. Why would he want to kill 'enemies' of Christ? Because he's a Christian? No. If he were a Christian, he would do as the bible says and he wouldn't murder. He most likely didn't believe killing was right, he was just being a bully.

I make my own morals.

I thought you got morals from society?

You asked me if killing was wrong. I said sometimes.

Why isn't killing right all the time?

It is in the Torah, or Old Testament to the Christians. Which, even Jesus said, still counts.

Find me a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that stoning is excusable, and I will be convinced.

If you believe that the Bible is the book of a deity, and is more important information for him to give then even things like medicine, then why are you not memorizing the whole thing?

If you enjoyed reading a long novel, would you memorize the whole thing?

Bull. You have not gotten any of your morals from Jesus or his doctrine. If you did, then wouldn't all Christians think the same?

All Christians should think the same. But some are hypocrites.

If god gave us morals, then all morals would be the same. Since all morals are different, then that means that a god could not have given us morals.

When you kill someone, do you feel as if you have done the right thing? No. Because the foundation of morals are the same.

You seem to think that without religion, you would be a murderous killer. If religion is the only thing keeping you from genocide, then you hate life.

Exactly. If I, as you do, believed that we were all temporary bags of meat that can talk, then I wouldn't give a care if people died.

He was not an atheist. He was Catholic, he even had a Catholic funeral.

I don't think a catholic would commit suicide.

Alright, thousands of suicides happen across the world each year. Statistically, most of them are Christians do to there being more Christians. So why don't you off yourself, or if you can't do that drink hard and live dangerously, if you are just going to go to heaven after you die?

Like I said before. I need to lead more people to Christ.

Are you suggesting that if you where an atheist, you would **** and pillage then kill yourself?

If I were an atheist, then yes, I would because I saw that life had no meaning.

HA! Have you read the Bible? God killed more than that, and is planning to do the same himself. The flood! Revelations! David, Sampson, Lot, he ordered killings of millions and killed millions himself.

The punishment for sin is death.

Why is killing bad, if it is just sending people to god, or sending them to hell, which would be part of his plan?

I believe I addressed that somewhere up there ^

Yawheh wants people to suffer. Why else would he make hell in the first place?

Because the punishment for sin is death. Hell is where you go if you reject God and devote your life to evil. You can't do evil and be repaid with good.

So are you saying that all the Jews, who would go to hell under the Christian doctrine, deserved to go to hell?

Everyone deserves to go to hell because all have sinned. I even deserve to go to hell. But I put my faith in God and He has forgiven my sins. He can forgive anyone's sins if they ask Him.

Then you are the scum of the earth and deserve no paradise.

Why am I scum? Because (assuming I were embedded in atheism) I am smart enough to realize that life is temporary and pointless? If I were atheist, I would realize that life would seem temporary and pointless, and that we are all an accidental mistake with no purpose. And of course I deserve no paradise because I am a sinner. But God can forgive those sins.

You are scum and a coward.

I forgive you for those words.

the only reason you even live is because you are afraid to die.

I am not afraid of dieing because my faith is in God.

you have no morals outside of an insane book you have not even read

I read the Bible every day.

and admitted that you would **** and pillage without it.

If I believed that we were all pointless piles of chemicals, as you do, then I would do whatever the heck I pleased because I would believe that nothing mattered.
-

Because society wouldn't exist if everyone is murdering everyone.

Why does society need to exist?
-

Here are my responses to the bunch of arguments on page 344:\r\n\r\n[quote]You repeatedly asked where we get our morals, which we told you but you keep asking.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou told me that you come up with your own morals and that you also get your morals from society. How do you get your morals from two different places?\r\n\r\n[quote]You have tried to tell us what our position is on things such as with "atheists have no meaning to life" and have even go as far as to try and put words in our mouth.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOkay then. What do you believe your meaning is? And I don't want any "We give our own lives meaning."\r\n\r\n[quote]You continue to ask why we don't just do what ever we like regardless of harm, which we answered.[/quote]\r\n\r\nHere's how it was:\r\n\r\nYou: "The meaning of life is to bring entertainment to ourselves, and to savor our only life."\r\nMe: "So why don't you steal from other people to bring yourself happiness?"\r\nYou: "Because that does other people harm."\r\nMe: "I thought your meaning was to make yourself happy. So why don't you fulfill your meaning by stealing from people?" ...........\r\n\r\n[quote]because, like we covered earlier, it only serves as a detriment to our species to kill off a good source of genes.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAnd... Why does our species need to survive? What do you believe is the meaning of life?\r\n\r\n[quote]no, because it would still serve as a detriment to our species, which our instincts tell us to preseve our species.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy must we preserve our species?\r\n\r\n[quote]because if we do, then we would only shorten our life, or make it as meaningless as your religion when we get life in jail.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy would you get life in jail? Why is stealing wrong if the meaning of life is supposed to be to make yourself happy?\r\n\r\n[quote]you again seem to be missing the point. morals don't come from religion. society made it first[/quote]\r\n\r\n[i]Why?[/i] Tell me why society made stealing wrong. Where did they get their moral basis? People were racist during the civil war. People wanted black people as slaves and some people didn't. But why did society decide to demolish slavery? Because they felt that it was morally wrong. But slavery helped people because the slaves did work for free. So even though slavery was doing no real harm, why was it abolished?\r\n\r\n[quote]we wouldn't steal because extending our species is our ultimate goal.[/quote]\r\n\r\nExtending our species to where?\r\n\r\n[quote]religious doctrine (if you actually paid attention) says otherwise.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOkay lemme give you the breakdown here. You think that, from my beliefs point of view, when someone dies, they go to heaven or hell. When they go to heaven, that's a good thing because it's better than earth. You also think that we think that it was God's plan for someone to go to hell when they die. You think that by killing someone, we would be doing good either way. Well you're wrong about what we think. If someone is a Christian, they should not just immediately die, just so they can go to heaven because they still have work to do on earth. They still need to advance the gospel that is why Christians should not just die immediately. God's plan is not for people to go to hell. He loves us, and sent His only son to save us. It is a Christian's job to lead those people to Christ, it is not a Christian's job to shoot all unbelievers.\r\n\r\n[quote]sorry, but that also applies with religion. everything you did has no real meaning in the eyes of god[/quote]\r\n\r\nAs I just explained above, it is the duty of Christians to bring people to Christ, that is our meaning.\r\n\r\n[quote]for he is indeed "a jealous god".[/quote]\r\n\r\nHe is jealous if you make idols of something else. He wants you to worship Him because He is the only way to heaven. You might say: "Wow. A god who wants all the attention for himself sure seems selfish." Example: You are terribly ill and I am a good friend of yours. You are taking the wrong medication for your illness. I have the right medication. I want you to take the correct choice because you are my friend.\r\n\r\n[quote]and that is why we all call you a fool.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWell then you're lucky I'm one who is quick to forgive.\r\n\r\n[quote]look over it again, and see if you can't figure out why.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm afraid I can't figure out why I shouldn't kill myself if I saw that life has no meaning.\r\n\r\n[quote]but they had no morals, until they ate the fruit, so they wouldn't know that they were doing wrong.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYes they had morals. They were given direct instruction to not eat the fruit. Adam and Eve chose to disobey direct instruction. They believed that there would be no punishment if they ate the fruit because satan lied, and said that there would be no punishment.\r\n\r\n[quote]how can you not see this, or understand this. his has more meaning than yours. his will extend his life,[/quote]\r\n\r\nHow will caring for birds extend his life span.\r\n\r\n[quote](because you believe that the ultimate goal is to die and go to a false land).[/quote]\r\n\r\nThank you for putting the wrong words in my mouth. But the goal of Christians is to bring others to Christ. The goal is not to die.\r\n\r\n[quote]we are, but we are still obligated by instinct to preserve the survival of said talking meat-bags.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy? Why must we preserve our species?\r\n\r\n[quote]still beneficial,[/quote]\r\n\r\nBeneficial to what? Your ultimate goal? I'd still like to know what you believe that your ultimate goal is.\r\n\r\n[quote]society says otherwise[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy?\r\n\r\n[quote]your god said it was okay to mistreat black people, if my memory is correct.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYour memory is 100% faulty.\r\n\r\n[quote]you are thinking that because we have only one life, that we should just run rampant and do whatever we want for as long as possible. it doesn't work like that[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy doesn't it work like that? If your meaning was to bring happiness to yourself, you should take the money.\r\n-\r\n[quote]Sigh. No. Stop reading into people's posts what you want to see there. No one has said this.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou didn't answer the questions....\r\n\r\n[quote]In a society where strength is valued and mates are chosen by this, **** would be a form of courting. Taking the other by force would indicate that you have more strength than they do. Since this would be the commonly accepted way of courting/mating, this wouldn't be wrong.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOkay. So why would it be fine in only certain societies and not others? Because morals differ from person to person? So who is right? What choice would you make? The choice that was acceptable by that society? What if murder was acceptable by that society? Would you go around killing everyone?\r\n\r\n[quote]I'm saying that violence in this case is unnecessary.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy is it unnecessary? Because it's wrong?\r\n\r\n[quote]While we could go forever in a circle of give and take, this would be a colossal waste of time.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWell making yourself happy is your meaning to life, right? So how is fulfilling your meaning in a big circle, a waste of time? If it's your meaning, why is it a waste?\r\n\r\n[quote]Because if we all just went out killing each other, we wouldn't get much down now would we? It would kill off our species.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat's wrong with our species going extinct? We're all just worthless bags of chemicals that can talk, right? So what's the point of survival?\r\n\r\n[quote]I said that's one of the 3 ways/places we get them from. [/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat if the three ways contradict each other? What if you believe stealing is wrong, while society says it's not?\r\n\r\n[quote]Because it wouldn't make me happy. I'd be thrown in jail. Why is this so hard for you to understand?[/quote]\r\n\r\nPlease read the following words a thousand times: If there were no laws, would you steal to make yourself happy? Because now, in this hypothetical situation, there is no jail. Now that there is no jail, stealing would make you happy, right? So why are there laws that say "no stealing" if, without laws, stealing would make you happy?\r\n\r\n[quote]How do you figure that.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI figure that like this.\r\n\r\nMe: "What is the meaning of life?"\r\nYou: "To make myself happy, and to continue the human race."\r\nMe: "Why do you want to continue the race of a bunch of temporary, talking, meat-bags? What good does our survival do?" ........\r\n\r\n[quote]The common good is the common good...the environment where each person has a fair chance to live a happy life...[/quote]\r\n\r\nA happy life that has no goal. Nothing to be accomplished other than your own happiness. That seems a little selfish to me...\r\n\r\n[quote]For the exact same reason you do. Because they have meaning to us.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI don't value things. I value the eternal souls of people. Things have no meaning to me. Things may have meaning to you, but one day, all your things will be rusted, rotten, broken, forgotten, misplaced, or stolen. Even our bodies will die and decompose. Eternal souls are the only things that matter.\r\n\r\n[quote]1) In born instinct in this case.\r\n2) Sociopaths aren't born with this.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIn-created morals in this case.\r\nSociopaths are probably atheists who actually realize that everything is temporary and so they actually go and do whatever they please.\r\n\r\n[quote]All of us have already told you why we don't just go out and do whatever whim we want, on how we don't think life is meaningless, and our own personal stances on where we get morals from.[/quote]\r\n\r\nPerhaps you could go over your reasons one more time. And make it clear and concise.\r\n-\r\n[quote]Then why did He send Jesus to suffer?[/quote]\r\n\r\nTo save us. Wouldn't you die to save the entire human race?\r\n\r\n[quote]Is this justification for the Crusades?[/quote]\r\n\r\nSigh. Whatever 'Christians' participated in the crusades, were hypocrites. The Bible says 'do not murder' and they go out and murder. They are hypocrites.\r\n\r\n[quote]It's like telling a kid not to touch the stove because they'll get burned, when the kid's never been burned before. They'll touch it wondering what the heck you were talking about.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThat kid knew it was wrong to disobey.\r\n\r\n[quote]You believe that an all-powerful being decided to create you with the sole purpose of being his preaching slave[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm not a slave. It was my choice to live for God.\r\n\r\n[quote]instead of simply writing "I am God, I exist" in the sky?[/quote]\r\n\r\nLet's say you wrote a 500 page novel. You ask me to read it because you spent countless hours on it. But I just skip to the end, and waste all your work. God doesn't want us to skip to the end, He wants us to actually put faith in Him.\r\n\r\n[quote]Gotta love contradictions. By your logic, if God made him with right and wrong born into him, and he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die and God was putting him in power for such a noble purpose, then therefore God told him that genocide was the right thing to do.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWrongamundo. "And he truly believed that Jews were enemies of Christ who deserved to die...." Gotta love fallacies. Why would he want to kill 'enemies' of Christ? Because he's a Christian? No. If he were a Christian, he would do as the bible says and he wouldn't murder. He most likely didn't believe killing was right, he was just being a bully.\r\n\r\n[quote]I make my own morals.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI thought you got morals from society?\r\n\r\n[quote]You asked me if killing was wrong. I said sometimes.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy isn't killing right all the time?\r\n\r\n[quote]It is in the Torah, or Old Testament to the Christians. Which, even Jesus said, still counts. [/quote]\r\n\r\nFind me a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that stoning is excusable, and I will be convinced.\r\n\r\n[quote]If you believe that the Bible is the book of a deity, and is more important information for him to give then even things like medicine, then why are you not memorizing the whole thing? [/quote]\r\n\r\nIf you enjoyed reading a long novel, would you memorize the whole thing?\r\n\r\n[quote]Bull. You have not gotten any of your morals from Jesus or his doctrine. If you did, then wouldn't all Christians think the same?[/quote]\r\n\r\nAll Christians should think the same. But some are hypocrites.\r\n\r\n[quote]If god gave us morals, then all morals would be the same. Since all morals are different, then that means that a god could not have given us morals.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhen you kill someone, do you feel as if you have done the right thing? No. Because the foundation of morals are the same.\r\n\r\n[quote]You seem to think that without religion, you would be a murderous killer. If religion is the only thing keeping you from genocide, then you hate life. [/quote]\r\n\r\nExactly. If I, as you do, believed that we were all temporary bags of meat that can talk, then I wouldn't give a care if people died.\r\n\r\n[quote]He was not an atheist. He was Catholic, he even had a Catholic funeral.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI don't think a catholic would commit suicide.\r\n\r\n[quote]Alright, thousands of suicides happen across the world each year. Statistically, most of them are Christians do to there being more Christians. So why don't you off yourself, or if you can't do that drink hard and live dangerously, if you are just going to go to heaven after you die?[/quote]\r\n\r\nLike I said before. I need to lead more people to Christ.\r\n\r\n[quote]Are you suggesting that if you where an atheist, you would **** and pillage then kill yourself?[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf I were an atheist, then yes, I would because I saw that life had no meaning.\r\n\r\n[quote]HA! Have you read the Bible? God killed more than that, and is planning to do the same himself. The flood! Revelations! David, Sampson, Lot, he ordered killings of millions and killed millions himself.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe punishment for sin is death.\r\n\r\n[quote]Why is killing bad, if it is just sending people to god, or sending them to hell, which would be part of his plan?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI believe I addressed that somewhere up there ^\r\n\r\n[quote]Yawheh wants people to suffer. Why else would he make hell in the first place?[/quote]\r\n\r\nBecause the punishment for sin is death. Hell is where you go if you reject God and devote your life to evil. You can't do evil and be repaid with good.\r\n\r\n[quote]So are you saying that all the Jews, who would go to hell under the Christian doctrine, deserved to go to hell? [/quote]\r\n\r\nEveryone deserves to go to hell because all have sinned. I even deserve to go to hell. But I put my faith in God and He has forgiven my sins. He can forgive anyone's sins if they ask Him.\r\n\r\n[quote]Then you are the scum of the earth and deserve no paradise.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy am I scum? Because (assuming I were embedded in atheism) I am smart enough to realize that life is temporary and pointless? If I were atheist, I would realize that life would seem temporary and pointless, and that we are all an accidental mistake with no purpose. And of course I deserve no paradise because I am a sinner. But God can forgive those sins.\r\n\r\n[quote]You are scum and a coward.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI forgive you for those words.\r\n\r\n[quote]the only reason you even live is because you are afraid to die.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI am not afraid of dieing because my faith is in God.\r\n\r\n[quote]you have no morals outside of an insane book you have not even read[/quote]\r\n\r\nI read the Bible every day.\r\n\r\n[quote]and admitted that you would **** and pillage without it.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf I believed that we were all pointless piles of chemicals, as you do, then I would do whatever the heck I pleased because I would believe that nothing mattered.\r\n-\r\n[quote]Because society wouldn't exist if everyone is murdering everyone.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy does society need to exist?\r\n-

offline

deathbewithyou

534 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 6:16pm UTC

I just skipped through a bunch of your stuff to talk about this:

But slavery helped people because the slaves did work for free. So even though slavery was doing no real harm, why was it abolished?

The reason why it was abolished because the slaves were sometimes treated wrongly, some don't ever get to see their siblings again. Although they get a home and free food their master would sometimes not treat them the way a master should.

offline

deathbewithyou

534 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 6:33pm UTC

I noticed what you said about the stealing part. Here look at this:
Person1"Hey that was mine!"
Person2"Not anymore. Now it belongs to me."
Person1"I ought to make some morals where stealing is considered bad."
Person2"Good luck with that. It will take about two hundred years to do that."
Person1"For a thousand years people have been doing stuff I am sick of. Well today it stops!"

offline

AfterBurner0

896 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 6:50pm UTC

The reason why it was abolished because the slaves were sometimes treated wrongly, some don't ever get to see their siblings again. Although they get a home and free food their master would sometimes not treat them the way a master should.

I know. But my point was that sometimes things can be wrong, but still benefit society. But by the atheist logic, murder does not benefit society, therefore it should not be allowed. By that same logic, that means that slavery should not have been abolished, because it was beneficial to society.

offline

goumas13

4,752 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 7, '12 6:53pm UTC

Can you prove that?

I am going to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia on that:
"The non-Christian sources for the historical truth of the Gospels are both few and polluted by hatred and prejudice."

Simply put, the Catholic Church, the world's largest Christian church admits there is no real objective and verifiable proof of Christ's existence.

offline

Highfire

3,025 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 7:07pm UTC

But by the atheist logic, murder does not benefit society, therefore it should not be allowed.

There is no "the" when it comes to atheist logic or beliefs. Atheists do not have a belief in a deity, they don't follow anything else by their classification of "atheist".

I believe in murder. Specifically, I believe in the murder of cold blooded killers.

By that same logic, that means that slavery should not have been abolished, because it was beneficial to society.

Slavery is not moral in different situations -- unless of course you argue that they are prisoners of war or community service (practically the same thing), but the former is still argued inhuman and the latter is hardly the same.

Murder, depending on how you view it (I just view it as a word for "killing someone", intentionally) can be different according to each situation. Killing someone in self-defense? Fine, better them than you.
Killing someone in an act of revenge? Not something I approve of necessarily but depending on what they did (such as killing another in cold blood) then I can't really disagree. . . though it would be better that authorities had the case first, to avoid more hassle than the murder would cause.

Killing someone for money? No.
Killing someone because they insulted your mother? Grow a pair, and no.

Et cetera et cetera et cetera. . .

Bit of a tangent, but all the more useful in an argument. Benefits to society does not mean anything -- the same way the capitalist market doesn't benefit the society as much as it attempts to benefit itself. I'm not arguing against it being wrong, either, it's business, whether or not it helps society (however laws involved keep some key requirements in place). I would consider it moral.

- H

[quote]But by [b]the[/b] atheist logic, murder does not benefit society, therefore it should not be allowed.[/quote]\r\nThere is no "the" when it comes to atheist logic or beliefs. Atheists do not have a belief in a deity, they don't follow anything else by their classification of "atheist".\r\n\r\nI believe in murder. Specifically, I believe in the murder of cold blooded killers.\r\n\r\n[quote]By that same logic, that means that slavery should not have been abolished, because it was beneficial to society.\r\n[/quote]\r\nSlavery is not moral in different situations -- unless of course you argue that they are prisoners of war or community service (practically the same thing), but the former is still argued inhuman and the latter is hardly the same.\r\n\r\nMurder, depending on how you view it (I just view it as a word for "killing someone", intentionally) can be different according to each situation. Killing someone in self-defense? Fine, better them than you.\r\nKilling someone in an act of revenge? Not something I approve of necessarily but depending on what they did (such as killing another in cold blood) then I can't really disagree. . . though it would be better that authorities had the case first, to avoid more hassle than the murder would cause.\r\n\r\nKilling someone for money? No.\r\nKilling someone because they insulted your mother? Grow a pair, and no.\r\n\r\nEt cetera et cetera et cetera. . .\r\n\r\nBit of a tangent, but all the more useful in an argument. Benefits to society does not mean anything -- the same way the capitalist market doesn't benefit the society as much as it attempts to benefit itself. I'm not arguing against it being wrong, either, it's business, whether or not it helps society (however laws involved keep some key requirements in place). I would consider it moral.\r\n\r\n - H

offline

deathbewithyou

534 posts

Nomad

Posted March 7, '12 7:08pm UTC

Simply put, the Catholic Church, the world's largest Christian church admits there is no real objective and verifiable proof of Christ's existence.

If thats true then how come a former atheist profesor was able to find mention of him?

offline

Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted March 7, '12 7:22pm UTC

You told me that you come up with your own morals and that you also get your morals from society. How do you get your morals from two different places?

This was answered. We get them from -multiple- places.

Okay then. What do you believe your meaning is? And I don't want any "We give our own lives meaning."

This was answered. It's individual.

Me: "I thought your meaning was to make yourself happy. So why don't you fulfill your meaning by stealing from people?" ...........

This was answered. You aren't happy when you end up in jail. Also, ever heard of empathy?

And... Why does our species need to survive? What do you believe is the meaning of life?

Parts one and two were already answered. Instinct/individual.

Why would you get life in jail? Why is stealing wrong if the meaning of life is supposed to be to make yourself happy?

Being happy doesn't mean committing every crime imaginable Afterburner. Get that through your head.

Why must we preserve our species?

This was answered. It's instinct. Why do birds reproduce? Why does anything? Why don't they kill each other? Instinct.

Why? Tell me why society made stealing wrong. Where did they get their moral basis?

Because nobody wanted what they considered "theirs" to be taken and thus the easiest way was to say no one could take what wasn't theirs.

So even though slavery was doing no real harm

Really?

REALLY?

Slavery was doing, "no real harm?" Are you kidding me?

He loves us, and sent His only son to save us.

Even taking YEC seriously, this would still have been 4000 years that it took for him to "save us" and even then in a barbaric sacrifice.

Example: You are terribly ill and I am a good friend of yours. You are taking the wrong medication for your illness. I have the right medication. I want you to take the correct choice because you are my friend.

That was a horrible analogy. Let me help you.

I genetically engineer a new species of intelligent fish. I tell them that they have free will and that they can do what they want. I then turn around and punish them when they don't worship me.

why I shouldn't kill myself if I saw that life has no meaning.

-Beacause- -It- -DOES- -HAVE- -MEANING-

How many times do we have to say something before you actually get it through your head?

What if the three ways contradict each other? What if you believe stealing is wrong, while society says it's not?

Oh look, in your garbage pile of questions which we already answered, you ask something that actually is a good question.

If they contradict, then I go with my personal judgement.

Please read the following words a thousand times: If there were no laws, would you steal to make yourself happy? Because now, in this hypothetical situation, there is no jail. Now that there is no jail, stealing would make you happy, right? So why are there laws that say "no stealing" if, without laws, stealing would make you happy?

WHY do you think stealing would make everyone happy?

Why is it unnecessary?

From a practical point of view, because every murder is -2 productive members of society, the victim and the murderer. The victim is dead, the murderer in jail.

From a empathetic standpoint, because of the pain it causes others.

Find me a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that stoning is excusable, and I will be convinced.

Jesus says the laws which came before him still stand, and some of those laws which come before are stoning for myriads of reasons. So Jesus endorses stoning.

If you enjoyed reading a long novel, would you memorize the whole thing?

If I believed it was the one and only truth to this world and that my eternal salvation and others depended on the knowledge inside of it? Definitely.

I don't think a catholic would commit suicide.

I'm sorry but, I'm laughing at you so hard right now. Are you really so arrogant to think that just because someone believes suicide is wrong that means they would never do it? Christians commit suicide -more- than most because there's more Christians.

The punishment for sin is death.

And according to you we're all sinners anyways. So why don't you just go around carrying out God's will?

I am smart enough to realize that life is temporary and pointless?

You're smart enough to look at nothing and believe in it wholeheartedly? Yeah, that's smart.

Now, let me sum this up in gigantic/bold letters so that you cannot possible miss them, because I have now re-answered your questions for the 3rd time personally, and everyone else has at least twice.

1) WE DO NOT THINK THAT LIFE IS MEANINGLESS.

2) WHY DO YOU THINK THAT RAPING/PILLAGING/STEALING WOULD GIVE EVERYONE SO MUCH PLEASURE?

3) WE GET OUR VALUES/MORALS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES.

4) IT IS INSTINCT TO REPRODUCE/KEEP THE SPECIES ALIVE.

[quote]You told me that you come up with your own morals and that you also get your morals from society. How do you get your morals from two different places?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis was answered. We get them from -multiple- places.\r\n\r\n[quote]Okay then. What do you believe your meaning is? And I don't want any "We give our own lives meaning."[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis was answered. It's individual.\r\n\r\n[quote]Me: "I thought your meaning was to make yourself happy. So why don't you fulfill your meaning by stealing from people?" ...........[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis was answered. You aren't happy when you end up in jail. Also, ever heard of empathy?\r\n\r\n[quote]And... Why does our species need to survive? What do you believe is the meaning of life?[/quote]\r\n\r\nParts one and two were already answered. Instinct/individual.\r\n\r\n[quote]Why would you get life in jail? Why is stealing wrong if the meaning of life is supposed to be to make yourself happy?[/quote]\r\n\r\nBeing happy doesn't mean committing every crime imaginable Afterburner. Get that through your head.\r\n\r\n[quote]Why must we preserve our species?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis was answered. It's instinct. Why do birds reproduce? Why does anything? Why don't they kill each other? Instinct. \r\n\r\n[quote]Why? Tell me why society made stealing wrong. Where did they get their moral basis?[/quote]\r\n\r\nBecause nobody wanted what they considered "theirs" to be taken and thus the easiest way was to say no one could take what wasn't theirs.\r\n\r\n[quote]So even though slavery was doing no real harm [/quote]\r\n\r\nReally?\r\n\r\nREALLY? \r\n\r\nSlavery was doing, "no real harm?" Are you kidding me? \r\n\r\n[quote]He loves us, and sent His only son to save us.[/quote]\r\n\r\nEven taking YEC seriously, this would still have been 4000 years that it took for him to "save us" and even then in a barbaric sacrifice.\r\n\r\n[quote]Example: You are terribly ill and I am a good friend of yours. You are taking the wrong medication for your illness. I have the right medication. I want you to take the correct choice because you are my friend. [/quote]\r\n\r\nThat was a horrible analogy. Let me help you.\r\n\r\nI genetically engineer a new species of intelligent fish. I tell them that they have free will and that they can do what they want. I then turn around and punish them when they don't worship me. \r\n\r\n[quote] why I shouldn't kill myself if I saw that life has no meaning.[/quote]\r\n\r\n-Beacause- -It- -DOES- -HAVE- -MEANING-\r\n\r\nHow many times do we have to say something before you actually get it through your head?\r\n\r\n[quote]What if the three ways contradict each other? What if you believe stealing is wrong, while society says it's not?[/quote]\r\n\r\nOh look, in your garbage pile of questions which we already answered, you ask something that actually is a good question.\r\n\r\nIf they contradict, then I go with my personal judgement. \r\n\r\n[quote]Please read the following words a thousand times: If there were no laws, would you steal to make yourself happy? Because now, in this hypothetical situation, there is no jail. Now that there is no jail, stealing would make you happy, right? So why are there laws that say "no stealing" if, without laws, stealing would make you happy?[/quote]\r\n\r\nWHY do you think stealing would make everyone happy? \r\n\r\n[quote]Why is it unnecessary? [/quote]\r\n\r\nFrom a practical point of view, because every murder is -2 productive members of society, the victim and the murderer. The victim is dead, the murderer in jail.\r\n\r\nFrom a empathetic standpoint, because of the pain it causes others.\r\n\r\n[quote]Find me a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that stoning is excusable, and I will be convinced.[/quote]\r\n\r\nJesus says the laws which came before him still stand, and some of those laws which come before are stoning for myriads of reasons. So Jesus endorses stoning.\r\n\r\n[quote]If you enjoyed reading a long novel, would you memorize the whole thing?[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf I believed it was the one and only truth to this world and that my eternal salvation and others depended on the knowledge inside of it? Definitely.\r\n\r\n[quote]I don't think a catholic would commit suicide.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI'm sorry but, I'm laughing at you so hard right now. Are you really so arrogant to think that just because someone believes suicide is wrong that means they would never do it? Christians commit suicide -more- than most because there's more Christians. \r\n\r\n[quote]The punishment for sin is death.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAnd according to you we're all sinners anyways. So why don't you just go around carrying out God's will?\r\n\r\n[quote]I am smart enough to realize that life is temporary and pointless?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou're smart enough to look at nothing and believe in it wholeheartedly? Yeah, that's smart.\r\n\r\nNow, let me sum this up in gigantic/bold letters so that you cannot possible miss them, because I have now re-answered your questions for the 3rd time personally, and everyone else has at least twice.\r\n\r\n[b]1) WE DO NOT THINK THAT LIFE IS MEANINGLESS.\r\n\r\n2) WHY DO YOU THINK THAT RAPING/PILLAGING/STEALING WOULD GIVE EVERYONE SO MUCH PLEASURE?\r\n\r\n3) WE GET OUR VALUES/MORALS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES.\r\n\r\n4) IT IS INSTINCT TO REPRODUCE/KEEP THE SPECIES ALIVE.[/b]

offline

goumas13

4,752 posts

Grand Duke

Posted March 7, '12 7:31pm UTC

If thats true then how come a former atheist profesor was able to find mention of him?

Sure, there are mentions of him. But only after 93 AD.

There are mainly four non-Christian alleged references to Jesus Christ in the existing literature:
Antiquity of the Jews by Josephus, written around 94 AD
The Annals by Tacitus, written in 109 AD
Letter to Trajan by Pliny the Younger, written in 112 AD
The Lives of the Caesars by Suetonius, written in 120 AD

The million dollar question is: when did Jesus die? Answer: 30-36 AD

Thus, the first time his name was even mentioned was at least 60 years after his death. Therefore, all the non-Christian evidence is nothing but hearsay.

Is -very questionable- hearsay evidence enough to presume Jesus' existence? Nope.

Bottom line: mention is not equal proof.

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