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Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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Prove your point of the Bible being a political tool. Also check Kumran texts, originating in ~1AD, they comply with what the Bible says, thus they act as evidence of it having truth inside.
Examples please. Futhermore statements which occurred prior to the penning of the Bible are NOT evidence of 'truth' in the Bible. That's like me telling you what the temperature was yesterday and claiming it as genuine prophecy.
He does indeed, He accepts our free will to act as we decide, and in case of us turning our backs to Him, He will just leave us alone - but, we Christians know this condition as "Hell". While you are here, you have your free will to turn towards or against God, and if you will die while your soul won't accept Him as an all-loving being, you won't meet Him.
Pure speculation and baseless assumptions about things which no one could possibly know in the first place. I don't see the relevance.
Well, basically it's the right position, if you do good and if you don't place guilt on your conscience with bad deeds, you can go to Heaven even if you have never heard of God existing. About eternal afterlife - I can't say what will be in there, I can say Christians believe in it, and God promised it.
If you believe that then you obviously don't subscribe to any brand of Christianity which is actually based on the Bible.
This sounds like blatant ignorance. Ask yourself a question, where did the laws of physics come from?
Matter interacts as it does due to the composition and structure of our universe. Had our universe been formed differently we would almost assuredly see different laws of physics.
They existed long before humans, its just that we have to put definitions to them to understand them.Correct. The question is why are they like this?
I'm not sure what effect that would have on Islam given it's a branch off from Christianity.Not exactly, since Christianity is the religion whose main belief "the Good News" is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the only one, who came here as a child to save us from the reign of sin, was crucified as a sacrifice for all of us, and resurrected to relieve us from eternal death, while Islam states that Jesus Christ is a great prophet, like Moses, but nothing more, and Mohammed the prophet is greater than them both.
So Christians what us to preach at them, even to the point of going door to door telling them how there is no God? Constantly receive idol threats that you will be tortured for believing in Christianity? Try to enact laws forcing you to follow moral codes you don't hold? Try to get Evolution taught in churches? Get "There Is No God" put on the money add in "No" be tween Under and God? Then use the money and how the pledge says "Under No God" as an example of the US being an atheist nation?No single logical point discovered. Could you please explain this text a bit clearer?
Then after all of this, when practically the only place you ever speak out about it was online you get treated as the bad guy for it?
I doubt Mormonism would exist.As far as I know, Mormonism is based on a single person who stated that he possesses a completely hidden copy of "real" texts of the Bible, and who dictated them to others to scribe his speech. Therefore, the Mormon founder is a person who attempted to link all the relation with the divine to himself, which is for some reason believed by many to be true. If there would be no Bible, such a person could take other religious texts (whatever are there of any major religion that could take place of real world's Christianity) and do the very same trick. BTW, he claims he has two "magical" stones named Urim and Tummim - in fact Urim and Tummim are two sides of one stone, and such stones are yet in possession of many Judaist rabbi.
Not exactly, since Christianity is the religion whose main belief "the Good News" is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the only one, who came here as a child to save us from the reign of sin, was crucified as a sacrifice for all of us, and resurrected to relieve us from eternal death, while Islam states that Jesus Christ is a great prophet, like Moses, but nothing more, and Mohammed the prophet is greater than them both.
If Christianity didn't grow they wouldn't have Jesus even as a prophet. Mohammad came much later reckoning the earlier true text.
No single logical point discovered. Could you please explain this text a bit clearer?
It's what atheists feel they have to constantly put up with from Christians.
As far as I know, Mormonism is based on a single person who stated that he possesses a completely hidden copy of "real" texts of the Bible, and who dictated them to others to scribe his speech.
If it wasn't for Christianity Joseph Smith wouldn't have gotten the idea to make up such a silly story. Thinking about it I wonder if the same goes for Islam with Mohammad?
If it wasn't for Christianity Joseph Smith wouldn't have gotten the idea to make up such a silly story. Thinking about it I wonder if the same goes for Islam with Mohammad?Probably, can't tell exactly. If something reaches mundane success (like a brand, for example) there will always be some forces with desires to draw part of the glory to themselves, this leads to fakes. Have you heard of "Abibas" sport suits? So here, Christianity is a success, so people try to make some mimics for it, there go Mormons with their prophet.
It's what atheists feel they have to constantly put up with from Christians.You mean, Christians go door to door annoying atheists with their proofs that God exists, and the other sorts of things, like proselytism? As I have heard about US, the main proselytic organizations are either small protestant "churches", or sects like JW and mormons. Probably I'm not right here, since I live very far away from USA
One of the things I like about Christianity is all of the great works of fiction it's inspired.
Hey now Mage, the Bible didn't give us RoboCop.
Actually much of the story in the first Robocop movie was meant to be analogis to Jesus, they were a bit vague though. We can also point to the works of J.R.R. Tolkien Who's works were also influence by among other things Christianity.
That's very true, but that's more like 'fan fiction', not the Bible actually 'giving' it to us. So if you are going for what it's 'inspired' then the unicorns shouldn't be there. The bible didn't inspire them, it flat out claimed that they used to exist. xD
(I'm feeling sleep deprived and pedantic, not a good combo 'cause this was probably an incoherent word soup. If it is, too **** bad.)
That's very true, but that's more like 'fan fiction', not the Bible actually 'giving' it to us. So if you are going for what it's 'inspired' then the unicorns shouldn't be there. The bible didn't inspire them, it flat out claimed that they used to exist. xD
What things stated to exist can't also be added to fiction?
loads of people are being cynic...
this is a discussion which has no end.
some statements:
- people say that there is no evidence that god exists,
but there also is no evidence that god doesn't exist!
- and you cannot always rely on facts, that is why we
believe. if everything was known to be true,
there would be no believing.
- also, there is bad stuff right: evil exists, then good must also exist. so don't blame god for bad stuff, he's not the only power working on this world.
- look at how beautifull the world is: look how complicated everything is. someone must be behind it
- I believe in evolution, big bang, and stuff like that, I just believe that something must have started it: people say that there was emptyness before the big bang, but what can come from emptyness?
- and atheists, why do you keep trying deny god? are you scared that god exists? I would like an answer to that?
- thepyro222, great post
I'm pretty sure I've pointed out just how pointless this is. We have a being that's supposedly all powerful and all loving and such but can't forgive without having something or someone killed. That doesn't really make much sense at all.
He made it clear to humanity that he really loved us. there is more behind it than just that. god actually came to earth and sufferd for us. this is much easier for humans to understand than: 'snap!' forgiven. forgiveness is a gift.
Arrogant, Christianity is just plain arrogant.
Who do we think we are, alone in our little rocky homeworld, to dictate the existence of a God. Our primitive baseless creations have no weight in the grand scheme of things, and ALL our religions are an example of this, not just Christianity.
Think about it, imagine for one second another alien species, or just some tribal persons even here on Earth. In the language they speak, in the way they think, there is no chance of them EVER meeting the Christian God, because no one would consider it to exist unless told so. So is it not unfair for them? Not having a change for this so called salvation? Because if you think like this, they really don't.
imagine for one second another alien speciesone has to believe in aliens for that.
or just some tribal persons even here on EarthThis is a lot more interesting. They have their moral systems, and actually NO ONE even if Christian said that they are forbidden salvation. The current belief of a Christian about such a tribal is: God can save anyone and everyone, and He will judge everyone at the time of his death, by the deeds he did and choices he made. In case a person had no chance at listening to the Gospel, he won't be judged about not accepting God as his God, since that person wouldn't know about His existance in mortal life. However if a person did listen to the Gospel and apparently rejected this information, he will be asked why. "Whoever is given more, will be asked for more."
Who do we think we are, alone in our little rocky homeworld, to dictate the existence of a God.Well, if you would read the source, you will find out that Christianity, along with Old Testament, is God-given instead of created by human. Therefore there is no "dictating" the existance of God, there's religious knowledge of this.
- people say that there is no evidence that god exists,
but there also is no evidence that god doesn't exist!
Yes and if there is no evidence that something exists we should believe it exists. That's why we should just accept all the evidence for God because there is no evidence for God.
- and you cannot always rely on facts, that is why we
believe. if everything was known to be true,
there would be no believing.
Clearly we should trust in what we believe. Kids BELIEVE that there are monsters under their bed or in their closet. And have you ever met a kid who was wrong?
- look at how beautifull the world is: look how complicated everything is. someone must be behind it
Yeah Just look at how beautiful these parasitic worms are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_worm
Clearly only an all loving God could have made such wonder (complex) creatures that can only survive by damaging it's host.
- I believe in evolution, big bang, and stuff like that, I just believe that something must have started it: people say that there was emptyness before the big bang, but what can come from emptyness?
Are you saying God came from emptiness?
He made it clear to humanity that he really loved us.
And those who don't accept God's love should burn in hell. That's why God made hell in the first place.
one has to believe in aliens for that.
Even the Vatican has admitted that aliens could exist, and that it isn't against their religion. Of course the biggest problem is that Jesus was an earthling, meaning it would be impossible for the aliens to be saved.
The Bible. Thepyro has claimed the bible is a historic text. As much as some of you do not wish to admit it, in some ways, it is. However, before you get up in arms over this little fact allow me to clarify. The bible is only historic in the sense that it has captured events in time. Much of what the bible claims, The Exodus, the Flood, even Jesus of Nazareth, did, or probably, happen. However, these events did not happen on the scale the bible claims they happened. It has been confirmed that there was a historical figure named Jesus of Nazareth. However, he's attributed to be a schizophrenic and a martyr who, by sheer accident, sparked a renegade form of Judaism. Yes, that's all Christianity truly is. There was a time where the Jews were oppressed in Egypt and left, were they slaves? Was there a Moses? Not likely, these are just added tidbits to make the story seem more glorious to the reader. The Flood. There is evidence that A flood did happen at some point. However, this is nothing new, we live on a water based planet. Regardless massive floods happen time to time. Obviously such events are recorded, however The Flood, is not to be taken literally.
Next let us move on to the creation of the bible. It's an interesting story. Christianity is not unique. In fact it's a religion based off of Judaism. The Old Testament (OT) is the Torrah, AKA, what the Jewish people are taught. Christians used the OT as a starting ground so that conversion would be easier. The begginning years were hard for Christians, they were a new sect of Judaism, a renegade, and they were severely oppressed. They used the OT as a basis of common ground in the hopes the Jewish population would be less harsh. As Christians began to find their own way in the world they wrote hundreds of books claiming everything from the divine to the mundane. Many Christians will claim that the bible was completed 70-100 years after the death of Jesus. This is untrue.
It wasn't until around 300AD that we see the bilbe in a form that would be recognizable to us, well, if we could read Latin that is. During this this time Christianity had grown tremendously, and had taken roots in the Roman Empire. Many were baffled, yet drawn to this strange religion. A religion that claimed to give up worldly possessions in order to find eternal life after death. Durring this time the Roman Empire was in a state of severe decline, the peasants were becomming riotous and the Senate was losing control of what it had worked so hard to build. The Ceasar was nothing but a figure head, and many longed for the days of a strong Emperor. Enter Constantine. Constantine saw the value of the new Christian religion and declared it the state religion of the Empire. Not surprisingly this kept the empire moving for another 100 years or so, by unifying the people under a common belief.
However, with the Roman people unified they now needed a common belief. A doctrine to be followed without exception. Unfortunately the Romans were left with over 300 texts to sort through. A council was formed to create a work that would allow the people to be moved to inspiration and docileness. So they looked for a heroic figure, a tragic hero. They found Jesus Christ. However, hundred and hundreds of texts claimed that Jesus was not the son of God. That he was, in fact, a mortal man. The Roman council decided this could not be allowed, and destroyed almost every text claiming this. What was left was the current rendition of the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Apocolyptic texts were added shortly after.
So, you see, the bilbe can, technically claim to be histrical, however, it is not historical fact. It is to be taken out of context. Christianity is not a religion inspired by divineness, but the needs to survive. As is every religion. Mistranslations happen, the bible is corrupt with them, and therefore, should not be taken literally. Christianity is not original, it draws off of several tales told by other religions. It used these tales as common ground in order to survive the oppression years, naturally, they became farmilliar, and thus, indoctinated into the system. But, mainly, Christianity is, and always has been, a political tool. More so than any other religion.
REMEMBER THE HISTRORY LESSON VESPER? Don't ignore it this time!
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