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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Shepherd

but there also is no evidence that god doesn't exist!


Burden of proof rests on you - absence of evidence is not evidence for existence either.

- look at how beautifull the world is: look how complicated everything is. someone must be behind it


Appeal to emotion combined with a watchmaker fallacy.

- I believe in evolution, big bang, and stuff like that, I just believe that something must have started it: people say that there was emptyness before the big bang, but what can come from emptyness?


The laws of cause and effect did not apply back then, as there was no physical universe. The singularity reached critical mass and it expanded violently into our Universe. "Before" the Big Bang is like North of the North Pole - it makes no sense, because as the North Pole is the "source" of North, the Big Bang was the "source" of time/the physical Universe/the physical law, etc..

- and atheists, why do you keep trying deny god? are you scared that god exists? I would like an answer to that?


They simply don't believe. That's really all there is to it.

However, with the Roman people unified they now needed a common belief. A doctrine to be followed without exception. Unfortunately the Romans were left with over 300 texts to sort through. A council was formed to create a work that would allow the people to be moved to inspiration and docileness. So they looked for a heroic figure, a tragic hero. They found Jesus Christ. However, hundred and hundreds of texts claimed that Jesus was not the son of God. That he was, in fact, a mortal man. The Roman council decided this could not be allowed, and destroyed almost every text claiming this. What was left was the current rendition of the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Apocolyptic texts were added shortly after.


We all scream, we all scream, we all scream for Nicene!
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

- and atheists, why do you keep trying deny god? are you scared that god exists? I would like an answer to that?


Do you believe in a giant orange/purple flying unicorn that goes around handing out candy corn to 5-7 year olds every other weeknight if they bowed down 23 times every 5 hours each wednesday? I thought not. That's about how I feel about all religions, because none of them has any real answers, it's all emotional and faith based, and each claims the same thing but kills each other over the ridiculous stories.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

It has been confirmed that there was a historical figure named Jesus of Nazareth.


There were several people with the name around that time. From my understanding it's possible non of them were the basis for the Biblical Jesus.

The Flood. There is evidence that A flood did happen at some point. However, this is nothing new, we live on a water based planet.


Noah's flood actually may have been based on previous flood stories which were likely inspired by an actual flood. This story of a story may go back several tellings before you reach the actual flood it's all based on.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

There were several people with the name around that time. From my understanding it's possible non of them were the basis for the Biblical Jesus.


Yes I know, however, historians give credit to the idea of a Historical Jesus, because a story such as Jesus's has to have a come from somewhere. Even mixing in legends and what have you, there needs to be an inspiration for these legends. Therefore historians conclude that there was probably a man named Jesus who preached something similar to what is in the New Testament. I am not defending the bible merely providing the histoical context that I know.
driejen
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driejen
486 posts
Nomad

driejen, do you mind searching for Gloria Polo's evidence? If you did, please say if it's sound enough for you.

I'm not sure what you are implying as the evidence of god's existence here, the fact that she lived or the experience she had? People live through incredible events around the world, like people who survive shots to the head. Her personal experience is not evidence because the brain can imagine a lot of things and especially in such a dire situation I would imagine. Dreams can be a reflection of your subconscious and show you what worries you, I don't see why this case would be different.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

So here's my question: What do you all exactly want as &quotroof"? Maybe you should figure out if it's even attainable before you go and interrogate people because their beliefs are different than yours. That's all it is, it's all opinions. "I'm right and you're wrong cause I say so." That's the never- ending circle of debate in this thread. There is no way to prove an opinion, a belief, just like I can't prove Christianity to you, and you can't prove Atheism to me. It's all beliefs. What you believe in your heart will stay there.

Most of you were Christians, and you have lost your faith. I want to know why? Why did you all of a sudden just lose faith that Jesus Christ is your savior? Do you feel that God has just forsaken everyone? or is it because something so terrible has happened in your life, you figure, "there can be no God if this has happened, because he wouldn't allow it."

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

As for aliens, there is an estimated 10 trillion planets in the universe.


Last I saw that was the number for the estimate of planetary systems, not single planets. E.g. we live in a planetary system, however there are 8 planets in it. So it's likely that there are far more than even the 10 trillion. Probably closer to 50 trillion individual planets.

They have found other life-supporting planets, but it has never been confirmed if they actually support life, if you know what I mean.


The issue with this is that we are looking at planets which could support life as it has evolved on Earth. We cannot foresee what kind of life could evolve under very different conditions. Perhaps life which is based on silicon rather than carbon, and which uses different gases, has occurred elsewhere in the universe.

Furthermore we've already found fossilized remains of bacteria-like lifeforms on meteorites which have struck Earth, and are NOT any type of life which has come from our planet. These lifeforms were created and evolved prior to ever entering Earth's atmosphere, which proves that life can, and has, occurred outside of our planet.
driejen
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driejen
486 posts
Nomad

and you can't prove Atheism to me

I don't have to prove a lack of belief. I don't believe that there is a god, that is to say I don't accept your claim that a god exists. Note that this is different to saying I believe there is no god. I cannot discount the possibility of the existence of a god just as I can't discount the possibility of the existence of the loch ness monster. However to sway me into believing them you have to introduce the idea to me with evidence. It is not that I am saying theism is incorrect, I am saying that the methods of arriving at that conclusion that I have seen are irrational.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I don't have to prove a lack of belief. I don't believe that there is a god, that is to say I don't accept your claim that a god exists. Note that this is different to saying I believe there is no god. I cannot discount the possibility of the existence of a god just as I can't discount the possibility of the existence of the loch ness monster. However to sway me into believing them you have to introduce the idea to me with evidence. It is not that I am saying theism is incorrect, I am saying that the methods of arriving at that conclusion that I have seen are irrational.


I can understand that. Please don't take this as me forcing my religion on you, cause I have plenty of friends that are atheist, I just have felt something personal, so i believe. I see a complete lack of evidence all the time in my faith, my dad and I had a discussion about it last night. It would take seriously long to get into, and I don't have the time..

On another note: I'm sorry for the way I acted in this thread, I acted upon emotion rather than reasoning. If you want to continue to debate religion... well, I see no point to it, because your minds are made up. So I'm going to bow my hat at debate, but if you want to discuss, then I'm here. I'm not going to try and &quotrove" Christianity to you anymore.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

So here's my question: What do you all exactly want as &quotroof"?


I want empirical evidence. Give me something genuinely supernatural that can be measured, tested, repeated, and ONLY attributed to the divine. I mean, if God can do anything then it shouldn't be that hard to provide some proof.

There is no way to prove an opinion, a belief, just like I can't prove Christianity to you, and you can't prove Atheism to me. It's all beliefs. What you believe in your heart will stay there.


While that is true to some degree, you can also show which opinions are grounded in fact based evidence, and which are more or less probable. While one cannot be shown to be conclusively true we can say which conforms with the evidence and which has a higher likelihood of being correct. Until new evidence comes in then I'm going with the one that is most likely right and which most conforms with the known facts of our universe.

Most of you were Christians, and you have lost your faith. I want to know why? Why did you all of a sudden just lose faith that Jesus Christ is your savior? Do you feel that God has just forsaken everyone? or is it because something so terrible has happened in your life, you figure, "there can be no God if this has happened, because he wouldn't allow it."


Because it is an irrational emotion based system which appeals to our desires for security, acceptance, and avoiding our own mortality. There is not one piece of empirical, testable data which supports ANY religion.

It is not a logical or rational conclusion, there are countless contradictions, and blatant displays of the ignorance of the people who lived at the time the supposed 'holy' books were written. This does not indicate divine inspiration, but the furthering of man's desires and ambitions.

I also highly doubt that if there IS a perfect being which created everything that such a being would even deign to care about what we say, think, feel, do, etc. in the first place, let alone demand that we abandon reason and subscribe to such obvious fictions as religion.

The entire basis of these religions are 'holy' texts which are, to a one, contradictory, vague, and in every area which addresses the natural world they are flat out wrong, or only repeating information which was already known at the time.

They also rely on a personal interpretation of them, yet give no hint as to which interpretations are correct, yet claim to be the direct word of the divine. They are a mix of metaphor, prose, falsehoods, contradictions, literal claims, and emotion charged assertions which give absolutely no way for one to discern which is which in many instances. If one cannot even arrive at a definitive conclusion as to what a holy book is saying how can he then begin to make any claims regarding the associated religion other than "I have no idea what is meant by this".

So long as these 'holy' books are the basis are out there and religion claims them as 'inspired works' or 'the word of God' then no thanks. If we cannot even produce or find a clear, concise, accurate, and measurably true message from the divine then how can we turn around and say to ourselves (and others) that we honestly know anything regarding religion and/or God?
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

I want to know why? Why did you all of a sudden just lose faith that Jesus Christ is your savior? Do you feel that God has just forsaken everyone? or is it because something so terrible has happened in your life, you figure, "there can be no God if this has happened, because he wouldn't allow it."


Fine, you want to know why I don't believe in God? Especially YOUR God? I'll tell you, if only in the pathetic hope of opening your eyes to the reality of the world.

Picture this: You're nine years old, until now life hasn't been to difficult for you, you have friends, parents that loves you and you enjoy school. All of a sudden one day someone decided to pick on you, you tell the teacher, and you think it'll go away. Instead, it gets worse. Your friends don't get involved because they don't want to be picked on either, and then more bullies start on you. And this goes on for five long years. No one helps you, no one stands up for you, and the bullies get worse. They beat you down physically and emotionally. You start hating school, you start isolating yourself from everyone. And that faith you had, the one that believed in God, that God could give you something to hold on to when no one else would; gone.

Because God doesn't care about the fourteen year old boy who sits in his kitchen holding a knife wondering what the point of life is. God doesn't care about the steadily growing idea that death is better than life because death might offer some peace. Because God doesn't care that the boy hates himself, hates the world and hates the idea of a God that claims to be all loving, but won't make the pain stop, won't make the torment go away. And why doesn't God care? Because GOD ISN'T REAL!

And what of the countless others who suffer needlessly? The ones who starve, who die in vain, who dream of nothing but dust, because dust is all they have left? The disease, the famine, the war, the endless suffering of humanity. It's enough to break the heart ten thousand times. And you, you sit there claiming there is a god of peace! Of love! Of compassion! There is no such being! It does not exist, because no such god would allow his creation to suffer, no matter their creed, no matter their skin, no matter their amount of pain. Such a god would be driven insane by the suffering of our world. Such a god would act if only to stop its own pain! There is no god as you claim. But, I do not discount the possibility of a god. But this god would be a god of cruelty, a god of destruction, a god of indifference. That is the god I can accept, but I will never kneel to such a thing. For such a god would delight in the idea of slavery, which is all the faithful are. Slaves. Slaves to an idea.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

I want to know why? Why did you all of a sudden just lose faith that Jesus Christ is your savior? Do you feel that God has just forsaken everyone? or is it because something so terrible has happened in your life, you figure, "there can be no God if this has happened, because he wouldn't allow it."


I was never really a believer, although I was raised as a christian. I had taken it for granted that my parents knew what they were talking about, and all the people at the church. However when I was about 6-7 years old and my parents put me in bible school, I saw a lot of things wrong with it, they just didn't make sense, and why couldn't god do something better? My main question back then was, "Why did jesus have to die? God is god, isn't he?" and I got answers like "for our sins" and "because he loves us." And I asked, "But why did he have to die?" and it just got avoided like that. It just kept growing, onto other stories that didn't make sense, and contradicting statements, so by age 7-8 I was fighting my parents weekly on not wanting to go to chuch because no one answered anything and told me I was a sinner even though I hadn't done anything wrong. So pretty much, I looked at it as a bunch of people who loved someone they had never met, who gave us a book to follow that didn't make sense, and preached loving and kindness, but often contempt or at least a little beyond joking about other people's foolishness and all that sort of stuff, and I just simply didn't want to be there. Also, I never really liked being around a lot of other people, and the church services were always the same, so I was bored and uncomfortable, along with peolpe always wanting to shake my hand and talk to me about random things when they were a friend of my parent's friend's brother etc, and the communion crackers tasted like paper.
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

Fine, you want to know why I don't believe in God? Especially YOUR God? I'll tell you, if only in the pathetic hope of opening your eyes to the reality of the world.


No need to get violent now, let's have a mature discussion...

A lot of all of your points are valid. For me, there is enough proof. What Jesus did in the Bible, what is irrational to me are theories of the big bang and how life evolved from non life. That's what don't make sense to me.
I'm not trying to downplay any of your arguments or anything, you have every right not to believe, alls I'm saying is I believe that Jesus Christ lived and died to teach us how to live and to wash our sins away with his spilt blood. If you want to learn more, maybe you're questioning, but you think maybe... just maybe there is a God, I would love to help you, but if your heart is set that there is no God, and there's nothing that can change my mind, then I'm not going to sit here and argue with you.

As far as empirical evidence... there is not a lot unless you believe that the Bible is a dependable resource for what happened 2000 years ago and you believe that it was based off of eyewitness accounts. There is a lot of personal evidence, callings, miraculous healing, stuff like that. But the scientist is going to dismiss this and try to find a way to explain it naturally. It's hard for me to keep my faith sometimes, but there is always something that helps me to hold on. I can't produce a videotape from 2000 years ago, nor do I have a time traveling DeLorean, so I can't provide actual hard evidence, but if we take the pieces, like a puzzle, and put them together. At least for me, they all fit into place that God exists.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

No need to get violent now, let's have a mature discussion...


You're the one who requested that atheists stay out of the discussion. Don't be a hypocrite.

A lot of all of your points are valid. For me, there is enough proof. What Jesus did in the Bible, what is irrational to me are theories of the big bang and how life evolved from non life. That's what don't make sense to me.


Just because you lack the ability, or willingness to understand, does not make it irrational.

I'm not trying to downplay any of your arguments or anything


Oh? Really, then what are you trying to do? Aside from being close minded, and dodging our questions. Notice how WE gave YOU answers, but you've yet to give us an answer that satisfies?

As far as empirical evidence... there is not a lot unless you believe that the Bible is a dependable resource for what happened 2000 years ago and you believe that it was based off of eyewitness accounts


It was based off of politics. And no it is not reliable. Go read my history lesson again.

There is a lot of personal evidence, callings, miraculous healing, stuff like that. But the scientist is going to dismiss this and try to find a way to explain it naturally.


Gee, isn't science pesky? Giving sensible answers, dear me.

so I can't provide actual hard evidence, but if we take the pieces, like a puzzle, and put them together. At least for me, they all fit into place that God exists.


Glad to hear it. Still not satisfied.

So now I want some questions answered, since you decided to prod at what makes me a non-believer, which, as you can tell has opened up a few wounds I prefer to keep scarred over.

1. How can you claim that there is a loving God? (note the bible will not work)

2. If this God is so loving, why is he indifferent to suffering?

3. If the God knows all, and is loving, why does he insist on suffering?

4. Why is the all loving god demanding?
thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

1. How can you claim that there is a loving God? (note the bible will not work)

Because I believe it in my heart

2. If this God is so loving, why is he indifferent to suffering?

I honestly Don't know... this is what my dad and I talked about last night, and this is basically what we came up with:

For 1400 years, there hasn't been a prophet, or a wide- scale miraculous sign. We have decided that God has just become fed up. Basically, he's saying "if you don't want to listen to me, then I'm going to let you destroy yourselves.", that is just what our opinion is, I honestly Don't know. I question that myself

3. If the God knows all, and is loving, why does he insist on suffering?
Because that is what God originally said was the penance for sin. The price for sin is death in the Old Testament. God's not going to change his ways just so more people can enter heaven. That is why he sent Christ to die on the cross, so that we can enter heaven, if we profess that Jesus Christ died to save us, and believe it in our hearts.

4. Why is the all loving god demanding?

I don't think he's that way at all. There are a lot of rules and stuff that people have made in the bible, but Jesus boiled it down to this:
Love your God, and love your neighbor. That's all that Jesus asks us to do. If we do those two things, the rest will fall in place.
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