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Holladay15
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Holladay15
3,671 posts
Nomad

Is there a lack of moral in general? in government, school, communities and so on...

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wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

Does this include the celebration of a human being's death? The recent episodes of American's celebrating Osama Bin Laden's death certainly brings me to question the morality of our modern world. I can think of several different tyrants over the course of history who were far more destructive in their times than Osama Bin Laden, yet no one celebrated their deaths.

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

There's a lack of morality, but our morality is better than that hundreds of years ago.

Technological progress? Yes.
Educational progress? Yes.
Moral progress?
Not really.

Compare them, education is up, technology is way up, morality has rarely changed - infact it's more of the disregarding of religious "laws" that have made morality "better" as time went on.

- H

jroyster22
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jroyster22
755 posts
Peasant

US Gov't with morals???? That is the perfect oxymoron! Or unselfish politicians!

Holladay15
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Holladay15
3,671 posts
Nomad

Disregarding religous laws

what do you mean by that?

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

US Gov't with morals???? That is the perfect oxymoron! Or unselfish politicians!


I really don't mean to sound like I'm being cruel here but is it a common part of the American mindset to view all politicians as being self-serving? It seems like every US citizen I've spoken to has a deep distrust for their political figures - perhaps it's due to how your political system operates?

I realize that a number of politicians are always going to have their own interests as priority, it's an indisputable fact that power attracts people, surely there must be some politicians who work for the betterment of those they represent though?
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Disregarding religous laws
what do you mean by that?

Apologies for not being more specific.

Religion often has strict or specific rules in which you must follow if you are a Christian / Muslim / etc. Some are, to many (like myself), morally incorrect and inethical. Given the evidence / proof given to support other theories I do not believe in Religion but it is believed by many others whom take their rules without question (or still follow it nonetheless).

Also, Avorne. I've never witnessed "shocking" moral values or selflessness that you hear in fairy tales - somewhat being the problem. Abe Lincoln chose to pick ethical correctness instead of his dream - Free (and fight for) slaves or have a single united America? He was able to get both, in the end, but intentions is the underlying factor - he intended to do what is right.

May I please say that this is my opinion, and therefore I am not stating this as fact. I know people can be touchy on the words used (like me ), so I'm just saying this from my perspective and beliefs. Thank you.

An indomitable spirit appears to be the thing people lack, that and self-control usually. The sad thing is this usually happens.

Simply put, people act how they see people act in movies, it's exaggerated, its expressing, it's a hinderance - it's entertaining. Some people don't realize and never attempt to see that if they just shut the **** up and looked at the box from another perspective they could get three times further than they otherwise would have. If they didn't hinder themselves with the backround events going on behind them that is a generally very human thing and focused on task at hand then the day would be smoother altogether.

Line from The Departed:
Cops sign up to use their guns, and then come to you and cry because they're supposed to.

It's pretty much that, as a prime example.

- H
Paarfam
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Paarfam
1,558 posts
Nomad

Some people don't realize and never attempt to see that if they just shut the **** up and looked at the box from another perspective they could get three times further than they otherwise would have.

Sweet, juicy truth. (Most) People are idiots though.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
554 posts
Peasant

Does this include the celebration of a human being's death? The recent episodes of American's celebrating Osama Bin Laden's death certainly brings me to question the morality of our modern world. I can think of several different tyrants over the course of history who were far more destructive in their times than Osama Bin Laden, yet no one celebrated their deaths.


But bin Laden did the 9/11 attacks which went closer to home than dictators in another country.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

But bin Laden did the 9/11 attacks which went closer to home than dictators in another country.

One reason more to not celebrate an act that is almost pure vengeance. I know 9.11 marked the americans more than anything else, and it is perfectly normal to be relieved. Yet it was still a human and a family father who died for his ideals and who was, at the time of his dead, not much more than a representative leader and mascot of Al-Qaida.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
554 posts
Peasant

One reason more to not celebrate an act that is almost pure vengeance. I know 9.11 marked the americans more than anything else, and it is perfectly normal to be relieved. Yet it was still a human and a family father who died for his ideals and who was, at the time of his dead, not much more than a representative leader and mascot of Al-Qaida.


Humans die everyday. And now people who were affected by 9/11 feel justice has been finally served. The natural reaction is happiness and celebration. And while ideals are fine they aren't if they are used on other people.
Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

(Most) People are idiots

Indeed. :<

But bin Laden did the 9/11 attacks which went closer to home than dictators in another country.

For instance, the best portaying of emotion in war is in Band of Brothers and The Pacific. I tried finding the scene on YouTube but couldn't. It was in Part 2 of the Pacific, which means spoilers inbound.
1) Shootouts in the night between Japanese Army and stranded Marines on an island (Begins with G but I cannot remember the exact spelling, Guadancanal or something).
2) In the morning, marines mostly succeeded and are holding out.
3) 3 Japanese soldiers come out to attack. 2 Die.
4) The other one attempting to run away, but shots are diverting his path.
5) He gives up, furiously throwing his headwear on the floor and intentionally opening himself up to being shot.
6) Marines are picking shots on him not to kill him but to hurt him.
7) Japanese man in water is standing up crying, one of the soldiers The Pacific is based on stands up and shoots him in the chest with a pistol to kill him fast.

I won't attempt to make it sound heroic or anything, because reading it will NOT properly show how harsh it can be.

One reason more to not celebrate an act that is almost pure vengeance.

No it isn't. You got him back and its freedom of knowledge to let out the pictures, freedom of speech to those who celebrate.

Yet it was still a human and a family father who died for his ideals and who was

Being a human means nothing, being a father isn't even a good thing in some cases.
If you think that being human is a good thing, then you're probably not the best of the best, you are probably not aware of the influences that hit you every day in such a subtle fashion you don't even know it, and you don't know how things can effect you. Maybe you do - but being a human is a trait, not a pro.

Father? I'd imagine Osama taught his kid his side was right all along - in a way I don't blame him, it's how things like Religion has been kept alive so long, but in the end its a terrible thing to do if you decide to put your ideals into your kid. Essentially it's your second life.

And while ideals are fine they aren't if they are used on other people.

The main reason I despise "Let's just all get along" threads. Religious fanatical groups will never do so, they believe their religion is right and will use everything in their power (including their very lives) to justify and empower and protect it.

Other groups usually spread their Religion - I'm doing "my side" a service by going against it. Giving a larger picture - it's anyones choice for waht they follow, but rarely they get the full picture before it's too late.

- H
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Being a human means nothing, being a father isn't even a good thing in some cases.
If you think that being human is a good thing, then you're probably not the best of the best, you are probably not aware of the influences that hit you every day in such a subtle fashion you don't even know it, and you don't know how things can effect you. Maybe you do - but being a human is a trait, not a pro.

This is a rather ridiculous reaction. Are you aware of what you have written? I just wanted to say that this guy was a guy like you and me, celebrating his death is a bit harsh, yet I can understand why you do that. What do I get as an answer? "you're probably not the best of the best". Did I ever say that? "you are probably not aware of the influences that hit you every day in such a subtle fashion you don't even know it, and you don't know how things can effect you. " Do you know that? I am perfectly aware that we are constantly subject to external impulses, and I am aware that no one is aware of every single influence one is subject to, not even you.

Father? I'd imagine Osama taught his kid his side was right all along - in a way I don't blame him, it's how things like Religion has been kept alive so long, but in the end its a terrible thing to do if you decide to put your ideals into your kid. Essentially it's your second life.

His testament stated he proscribed his children to join Al-Qaida, and he basically made clear he didn't want his family sucked up in that organisation. I know there are a lot of good and a lot of bad parents; I don't know what kind of parent he was exactly, and I doubt you know either. And, again, I didn't want to make a dead serious point out of that. This was more meant in an illustration sense.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

"you are probably not aware of the influences that hit you every day in such a subtle fashion you don't even know it, and you don't know how things can effect you. " Do you know that?

Know that you know or know myself?
Both. I don't take notice of what could be influencing me and instead look at it from as much an unbiased view as possible - because otherwise I could be "compromised".

If you knew, then chances are you would know that being human means very very little.

I am perfectly aware that we are constantly subject to external impulses, and I am aware that no one is aware of every single influence one is subject to, not even you.

And? Why not celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Because he was a human, a father? I've done what I could to prove my point that being a human or father isn't a pro (much more a trait), and that is my counter-reasoning for why people shouldn't celebrate his death. And yes, I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I wasn't entirely careful on that part.

His testament stated he proscribed his children to join Al-Qaida, and he basically made clear he didn't want his family sucked up in that organisation. I know there are a lot of good and a lot of bad parents; I don't know what kind of parent he was exactly, and I doubt you know either. And, again, I didn't want to make a dead serious point out of that. This was more meant in an illustration sense.

The ground to follow is the belief people have in Religion when they're older - particularly those whom are raised as a member of said Religion. Osamas life was dedicated to fighting us and it would be very difficult for it not to (even indirectly) influence his children. Making sure they know the full picture and its their choice is better than them thinking naturally "I'm your father and I think this side is right".

- H
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
554 posts
Peasant

The main reason I despise "Let's just all get along" threads. Religious fanatical groups will never do so, they believe their religion is right and will use everything in their power (including their very lives) to justify and empower and protect it.

Other groups usually spread their Religion - I'm doing "my side" a service by going against it. Giving a larger picture - it's anyones choice for waht they follow, but rarely they get the full picture before it's too late.


OK now I have to give this terry pratchett quote

The gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they believe, in their deepest heart, that they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is so important to shoot missionaries on sight.


It's not that I'm against people holding opinions of their religion although personally I think they shouldn't but what I'm aginst is them having power. The Catholic Church can partly stop stm cell research through this power among other things
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Also the protection that arises if someone has an objection :<

- H

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