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Holladay15
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Holladay15
3,671 posts
Nomad

Is there a lack of moral in general? in government, school, communities and so on...

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Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Religion is not the basis for morality - we've observed instances of set rules and standards in a number of animal species that live in groups. I seem to remember there was a study done involving gorillas that showed they had moral standards and even a form of politics that was rather similar to humans.

iMogwai
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iMogwai
2,027 posts
Peasant

religion gave us our morals yes


I doubt this is true. I think it's in human nature to live in groups, and most animals who live in groups have some sort of rules and hierarchy. Take a look at ants. They have a queen, and a bunch of workers who work their ***** off for the sake of their society. You don't see the ants causing rebellions or killing people from the same ant hill.

Basically (<- I need to stop using this word), animals that rely on their groups for survival tend to do what's best for said group, and this is where I personally believe out morals come from.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

I agree with Avorne, religion is not the basis of morality. I have to agree partly with redbedhead, certain religion have the highest standart of morality. Question is, do we really want those morals? Morals are subjective; are we sure that it is a good thing to have so many morals? You don't need religion to have a perfectly reasonable standart of morals.

Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

but just because people are losing their religion doesnt mean they they will or have to lose their morals

It wasn't necessarily "their" morals, mind. They followed the Bible heart and soul, the morality was more of the key through the door of following it - it was the right thing to believe in.

If religous people lost their religion then they would probably view it as losing their morals as well, how would they react? I don't know, firstly we've strayed off topic and it became a "what if religion wasn't here" thing, which is 100% hypothetical. Secondly, religion will probably only go once hard-ground proof has completely denied implications made by their religion.

In a way this is actually already false, since we've discovered that the Earth is infact older than 6,000 years.

Religion is not the basis for morality - we've observed instances of set rules and standards in a number of animal species that live in groups. I seem to remember there was a study done involving gorillas that showed they had moral standards and even a form of politics that was rather similar to humans.

Can you define morals in this case? I do find it hard to believe that a guerilla would point out to another in his / her own way that something is wrong - despite backing up the "We have morals" side this thread.

Political resemblence? I'd always imagine primitive societies having a Shaman, or a single leader, like a King. In a way we still follow that with Prime Ministers and Presidents. xD

- H
Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

animals that rely on their groups for survival tend to do what's best for said group, and this is where I personally believe out morals come from.

Given the huge number of humans on the planet I don't think internal problems matter too much to us, killing someone, even unjustified probably isn't a "Wait, we need all the help we can get" sort of thing. Especially with the luxuries people have now.

You don't need religion to have a perfectly reasonable standart of morals.

I don't think a lot of religious people have their OWN morals, but instead follow the morality of their religion - in a way it's their key to "This is how Religion is justified" - because it shows great judgements through example.

They have a queen, and a bunch of workers who work their ***** off for the sake of their society

Take a look at the soldier ant, they can link together leg-to-leg to form any structure they need to achieve their goals, bridges to cross larger gaps being an example.

They'll soon make their own catapults and invade the world...

Hehe, but seriously teamwork is the pinnacle of development for all animals, as much as I hate to say it (I used to believe I could do everything essential to my well-being by myself... Not anymore :< ).

Sorry for double post, btw.

- H
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
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Nomad

people talk about us losing our morals as if they are looking back on some golden age where we lived in utopia, when did sosciety ever have sucha strong moral code

and if religion was the only thing that gave us morals we'd all be dead by now

/|\\

iMogwai
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iMogwai
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Peasant

Given the huge number of humans on the planet I don't think internal problems matter too much to us, killing someone, even unjustified probably isn't a "Wait, we need all the help we can get" sort of thing.


True, but a society needs laws and morals to prosper. It's not only about survival, but also about being as successful as possible.
Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

It's not only about survival, but also about being as successful as possible.

I don't think that's as much a reliable debate as the survival bit - I have nothing capable of backing up that statement, especially since "being as successful as possible" hasn't been elaborated.

and if religion was the only thing that gave us morals we'd all be dead by now

This.
Ironically Christianity allowed slavery.
Raiiiiight. Morality.

- H
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
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Nomad

there are flaws (massive flaws) in early christianity but in recent years apart from the catholic church it has done lots of good, but it doesnt give us our moral code our unique intelligence coupled with our animalistic instinct to survive is what gives us our moral code

Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

I wouldn't call it that unique - wasn't it earlier in this thread that guerillas shown signs of morality?

Still haven't gotten a source from that, lol XD

Also, it does give people their moral code but they do not think of it for themselves - but in no way is religion necessary for one to develop their own moral code.

Is that what you were saying?

- H

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

I'm not sure if this is the article I was thinking about earlier but here's one article on morality in primates.

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Urm. Yes, that argument has common ground. Woo ! Thanks Avorne

- H

iMogwai
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iMogwai
2,027 posts
Peasant

Given the chance to get food by pulling a chain that would also deliver an electric shock to a companion, rhesus monkeys will starve themselves for several days.


And this is what the scientist who performed the experiment looked like.

http://bitesizebio.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/dr_evil.jpg

Anyways:

Dr. de Waal believes that these actions are undertaken for the greater good of the community, as distinct from person-to-person relationships, and are a significant precursor of morality in human societies.


This was kind of what I was trying to say earlier.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
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Chimpanzees, who cannot swim, have drowned in zoo moats trying to save others.


I'm sorry, but I laughed at this. One, why are there Zoo moats deep enough in their cages if they can't swim, and two, Oh noes! :O
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

funny ina sick way, and yes h thats what i was saying

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