ForumsWEPRWhy do you think there is no God?

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Holladay15
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Holladay15
3,671 posts
Nomad

I ask this because a lot of these forums are of why people believe there is a God but, what about those out there who don't believe in a God? Why don't you think there is a God at all?

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Hit the submit to soon.

Another thing if free will was created by god then it's reasonable to assume god does not have free will, as such would not be god.

valkery
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valkery
1,255 posts
Nomad
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

And this is what it is like to believe in gods grace. Have fun, if you believe in god saving you from you sins...


Maybe I just forgot about it but I don't think I've seen that one of his.
Programpro
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Programpro
562 posts
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I don't see how that is outside the laws of physics. It could easily be a result of how our brain has evolved. There are also those who argue that free will is just an illusion and doesn't actually exist.


Okay, everyone stop with the "that's how they evolved" thing! I mean, evolution is quite plausible, but it is just so silly seeing everyone put up their evolutionary postulates to explain their viewpoints. I see it all the time here, and it gets old fast, not to mention it is baseless evidence.

But, to your point, free will means that we can, of our will, do what we want. If our brains are purely biochemical, then every action is governed by the laws of physics and is immutable, and we would not be able to make choices. Heck, we probably wouldn't be conscious, either, having the willpower of a droplet of water. You can't hardwire randomness and unpredictability, it has to come from elsewhere.

And yes, some make the argument that we don't have free will. If that's how they feel, then w/e, more power to them. Personally, I feel that my will is free, and so I shall assume that it is.

Another thing if free will was created by god then it's reasonable to assume god does not have free will, as such would not be god.


Wait what? No, no, free will IS God, that's what I am saying! Free will comes from God. God created a universe of rules (or maybe this universe of rules existed already and so did he.. i don't know, that's another issue). You know what, rephrase: The Universe is built on rules. Constant, immutable rules. This means that every action of physics is set and, theoretically, predictable. Our free will violates this--it is unpredictable--and as such it must come from without. God, present in the ephemeral, is from whom stems our entire species' free will, as an extension of his own apartness from the governing laws of physics.
valkery
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valkery
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Nomad

Our free will violates this--it is unpredictable--and as such it must come from without.


So you are saying that having free will defies the laws of physics.

Kudos for being crazy.
indie55
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indie55
608 posts
Nomad

Yeah. I don't see how that works.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Okay, everyone stop with the "that's how they evolved" thing! I mean, evolution is quite plausible


Which is all that's being stated. It's not being stated as fact simple being offered as a plausible explanation. God however is not a plausible explanation.

But, to your point, free will means that we can, of our will, do what we want. If our brains are purely biochemical, then every action is governed by the laws of physics and is immutable, and we would not be able to make choices.


We could still make choices within that framework. This is also why some say free will is an illusion.

Wait what? No, no, free will IS God, that's what I am saying! Free will comes from God.


This seems to be two entirely different statements pertaining to God. This claim has less of a basis then the possibility of it being an evolutionary development, so really your own argument can be used for your argument of it being and coming from God. Though unlike the with evolution, "God did it" is not plausible given even the basic frame work is unproven and ill or arbitrarily defined.
Programpro
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Programpro
562 posts
Nomad

So you are saying that having free will defies the laws of physics.

Kudos for being crazy.


Yeah. I don't see how that works.


Well, it's actually quite simple. I never thought it sounded crazy, it just requires a belief in the ethereal, a belief in a soul.

The point is, let us assume that we can choose ANY action. We can do ANYTHING. It is solely up to our whim.

If, as many people claim, we are our brains; that is, if our consciousness and our thoughts are solely biochemical with no ethereal aspect to them, then all of our actions would be set, the laws of physics would govern all that we do, and we could not have free will.

So:
if ALL_BIOCHEMICAL then NO_FREE_WILL

The contrapositive is true, so:
if FREE_WILL then NOT_ALL_BIOCHEMICAL

I believe in free will, therefore I don't think we're purely biochemical. That's my reasoning.



*PS: In any comments where I used the "ephemeral", read "ethereal"; I want to mean "other-worldy", not "temporary" :P
indie55
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indie55
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Nomad

The point is, let us assume that we can choose ANY action. We can do ANYTHING. It is solely up to our whim.

So we can do anything in our minds...
locoace3
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locoace3
15,053 posts
Nomad

So we can do anything in our minds...


yep, in my land it rains pizza and breadsticks and hails bon bons while the streets are made of french toast

totally not crazy
Programpro
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Programpro
562 posts
Nomad

So we can do anything in our minds...


yep, in my land it rains pizza and breadsticks and hails bon bons while the streets are made of french toast

totally not crazy



Descartes is rolling over in his grave... No, seriously, I'm half-amused and half-depressed because I realize I'm talking with people who have such a lack of sense and a very limited familiarity with this branch of philosophy

We can DO anything meant that we can CHOOSE to do anything, okay? Sorry that was SO DIFFICULT to infer, especially when I say "we can CHOOSE any action" as an appositive noun clause before it >_<

Also, thanks for addressing the rest of my argument. I appreciate it.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

So you are saying that having free will defies the laws of physics.

Kudos for being crazy.


Uh, mentioning causal determinism doesn't make you crazy. You have some reading to do, methinks.
indie55
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indie55
608 posts
Nomad

Uh, mentioning causal determinism doesn't make you crazy. You have some reading to do, methinks.

Hard to tell on a forum where u can't tell people's tones, context, etc.
The best a person can do is guess. Also depends on what is meant by crazy.
Programpro
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Programpro
562 posts
Nomad

Uh, mentioning causal determinism doesn't make you crazy. You have some reading to do, methinks.


Thankyou, notanalt. I knew I could count on your intelligence

Man, I remember you from when I used to post 2 or 3 years ago. You been here a whiiile :P

What are your thoughts on what I said?
valkery
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valkery
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Nomad

if ALL_BIOCHEMICAL then NO_FREE_WILL


Correct. Does this mean that every action in apes is also fueled by biochemical reactions? What about dogs?

if FREE_WILL then NOT_ALL_BIOCHEMICAL


Okay, so if there is such a thing as pure free will, reactions based solely on chemical reactions are impossible in humans. Why would it be that way for only humans?

See, I think that when endorphins (sp) rush thorough our systems, we are more primal, more animalistic. The rush gives you the power of a beast. An unthinking, savage beast.

However, what defines a human?

I think that what defines a human, is our inane ability to create. We create things that any other animal can't comprehend, and we do it through a thought process that is strictly biochemical.

Why can't animals create like we can? Because we have a more highly developed brain than any other animal on the planet, and it runs purely on the biochemical.
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