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camm95
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camm95
52 posts
Nomad

just a question i've always had, and just so we are clear, this is not a question pertaining to any specific religion, it is simply a hypothetical.
please don't cite religious texts, i'd like to hear your personal opinions from purely rational viewpoints

  • 134 Replies
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Humans can't exist without it.

Because humans are it. In a way(s) it's our nature. Not having it is hypothetical, but it doesn't mean it is impossible.

Are you saying the world wars were good? Because a lot of people would have something to say about that.

Yep, I gotta say about that. The common term "Learn from your mistakes" is often one of the basis' that people think that evil needs to be there or there is no good. Perhaps when there is good we are afraid of bad? Striving towards an even better life?

'eh? It's hypothetical, as I've said, but nonetheless think about the topic on hand - the world isn't perfect, that's obvious, so if it does become one then wouldn't the lessons learnt (hopefully) help us in the long run?

maybe they don't need incontrovertible proof but instead just a story that may have happened, i couldn't tell you.

Indeed, and I'm alright with that, except when it hinders other peoples lives and furthermore drastically changes it, mostly through killing, or indoctrination of said religion.

When religious fanatics effect other people, blowing these up or w/e, it gets way out of hand, and the amount of spending going to the Church and not something more useful - NASA? Maybe then they will actually send a dang probe to Uranus.

No, that's not a joke, as far as I know NASA has limited the amount of missions based on Uranus because of the name.

Could we not have been created to be content and fine great enjoyment in such a boring life instead of being wires to seek obstacles to over come?

Religion has a beautiful little thing that humans are evil or not-content with what they have were it not for them seeing the worse sides of it <3

I could only understand it in a logical sense if that God were flawed in some way.

After all he did create EVERYTHING, there is no excuse for Evil. If he doesn't follow logic (which, ofc, he does not) then why would he need to have evil if he could magically conjure angels? Why aren't they dwivelling little *******s like Satan?
Why did he create anything anyway? As far as I know he wanted love from people - all of them his creation, would you create a computer program that said "I love you" so you'd feel good about yourself? Just imagine that on a scale of 1 / 8 planets. Yep, that's us.

I can imagine him doing it like a bottle ship, twinking little things here and there until he's content with his masterpiece. Then again, he's messed up so many times :P

- H
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

look, according to my belief, God created us by a divine plan for us all to come back to him. he needed to have laws so people could choose to follow or break them. if there were no laws, then nobody would do evil. if there was evil, then there was also no good because one has to be there for the other to occur. no good meant that we couldn't return to him in the end. that was why the laws were created, to give us free agency. no free agency would mean we couldn't reject our inner evil to return to him. let's face it, humans are evil by nature. evil is essential for the existience of good people who can combat evil.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

There's no such thing as good or evil in the nature of things, nor is there such a thing as objectively good or evil acts, I think that the laws and morality set by your supposed sky-fairy are flawed and this makes his whole system of good and evil flawed too.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

let's face it, humans are evil by nature.

I'll quote someone else from another thread, I think the context is right:
[quote]He created us, thus "evil" and "good"

No human is initially evil. [/quote]

if there were no laws, then nobody would do evil.

Are you sure...?
if there was evil, then there was also no good because one has to be there for the other to occur.

So.. good is needed for evil, and evil is needed for good? God=good. Good-evil=nogood. god-evil=nogod. God can't exist without evil, and is dependent of it. But in the beginnig, wasn't there only god? And isn't god omnipresent? This would mean that god wasn't good in the beginning, or else he couldn't have existed before everything else, and could'nt have created everything.
evil is essential for the existience of good people who can combat evil.

Are you really saying that evil is necessary to combat evil? So if there was no evil, we couldn't fight off evil. Rofl..
Finally, a god that has to create laws and evil in order to keep faith and good, doesn't seem omnipotent to me...
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

sky-fairy


oh cmon, if you're going to insult god's existence, could you at least be more respectful? there is a system of laws. if there wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to disrespect him the way you just did. in fact, there were two people who wanted to do the work of the redeemer. jesus and lucifer. if lucifer had done it, there would be no choices (like your choice to be an atheist avorne) at all, but since jesus came we get to make the choices that are available to us today. of course you wouldn't agree because your belief is built to reject the idea from your life.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

oh cmon, if you're going to insult god's existence, could you at least be more respectful?


Sky faerie is a pretty accurate description of a faerie who lives in the sky.

there is a system of laws. if there wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to disrespect him the way you just did.


...What?

if lucifer had done it, there would be no choices (like your choice to be an atheist avorne) at all, but since jesus came we get to make the choices that are available to us today. of course you wouldn't agree because your belief is built to reject the idea from your life.


Wait, so if Satan, the being who is apparently evil, had done the job himself, we would be able to go to heaven? But instead, with choices, apparently we are going to hell? In that case, wouldn't Lucifer have been the better candidate?

Lui; I will save all the beings on Earth.

Jesus: I will save a few of the beings on Earth.

Which would you choose?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

God created us by a divine plan for us all to come back to him.


Then why not just skip to the end result? This whole thing seems rather convoluted.

let's face it, humans are evil by nature. evil is essential for the existience of good people who can combat evil.


So basically we have to be sorry for being what we are. I always thought that was a load.

oh cmon, if you're going to insult god's existence, could you at least be more respectful?


If your going to be insulting be more respectful? ...ummm, think about that statement for a moment.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

if lucifer had done it, there would be no choices (like your choice to be an atheist avorne) at all, but since jesus came we get to make the choices that are available to us today. of course you wouldn't agree because your belief is built to reject the idea from your life.

I don't know about Avorne, but I didn't choose to not believe in any god. I don't believe, whether I want to or not. Belief is not a choice, get that in your head. It's all about your personality and external influences and all. You can play theater as long as you want, but in the end you can't choose what you believe in and what not. Except if you convince yourself of something you don't believe, but this seems wrong..
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

of course you wouldn't agree because your belief is built to reject the idea from your life.


Don't think I'm singling out Christianity as a target for my rejection, I reject all religions equally, you're practically the same as me except you reject one less God than I do. Anyway, I think referring to him as a sky-fairy is actually much more respectful than some of the other things I could refer to him as, it has a much smoother ring to it than The Magical Malevolent Mass Murderer Who Lives In The Clouds.
TRUdog
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TRUdog
1,031 posts
Nomad

Lui; I will save all the beings on Earth.

lol, wut? The very first thing Lucifer did was tempt Adam and Eve to lead them astray from God to create sin. In the beginning there was no sin, and we had a perfect world. We were already saved before Lucifer came down and screwed it all up, he destroyed that perfect world.
Um... wait a minute. Lucifer wants to save all the beings on earth (according to you) after he destroyed a perfect world? If we were already in a perfect world and safe from hell, then why would he destroy that if Lucifer wants to save us? Hmm... those things just don't match up, do they?
Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

wow, thats a rather grim picture you just painted. not really sure how to counter a phrase with the words "mass murderer" in it.

it's hard to explain all of it, that's why the small pieces I have put down sound so odd. the only real way to explain it is to go to LDS church (or hopefully some other church) and actually listen to the lessons they teach.

you guys may not like it, but when we are dead, then either I'm right, or you're a rotting corpse. I don't know about you, but the whole "rotting in the ground" thing sounds worse than a divine message. I mean, being a christian is like being a failsafe. if we are wrong, then no harm done. if we are right, then the afterlife is going to really suck.

that's all there really is to it.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

At least Lucifer only killed 12 people and not the millions of people that God killed. In fact, if God didn't want Adam and Eve to be tempted then he shouldn't have even left a tree of forbidden fruits in easy reach, how were they supposed to understand right and wrong?

Bladerunner679
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Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

you're right, they couldn't. the tree was placed there so they could become mortal, and allow for us to become human. god knew they would do it eventually, but the reason he told them not to was so that the newly made satan could tempt them to eat the fruit, and allow gods plan to set in motion.

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

lol, wut? The very first thing Lucifer did was tempt Adam and Eve to lead them astray from God to create sin. In the beginning there was no sin, and we had a perfect world. We were already saved before Lucifer came down and screwed it all up, he destroyed that perfect world.
Um... wait a minute. Lucifer wants to save all the beings on earth (according to you) after he destroyed a perfect world? If we were already in a perfect world and safe from hell, then why would he destroy that if Lucifer wants to save us? Hmm... those things just don't match up, do they?


It was a snake, according to your religion, not necessarily Lui. It takes a large stretch of a Revelations book to assume that he is such, and most modern Christians don't believe that book.

And according to blade, that would happen since we apparently would be forced to be good under him.

you guys may not like it, but when we are dead, then either I'm right, or you're a rotting corpse. I don't know about you, but the whole "rotting in the ground" thing sounds worse than a divine message. I mean, being a christian is like being a failsafe. if we are wrong, then no harm done. if we are right, then the afterlife is going to really suck.


Its what happens, "live with it". You can't just pretend it isn't going to happen.
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

So, this plan that your God set in motion, He understood that it would lead to the eternal torture in Hell of millions upon millions of poeple? He understood it would give rise to evil and suffering amongst His creations and allow the influence of the supposedly bad satan to grow even stronger? Why would a loving, benevolent deity even consider doing that to the creations that he supposedly loves even though He fully understood the consequences?

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