just a question i've always had, and just so we are clear, this is not a question pertaining to any specific religion, it is simply a hypothetical. please don't cite religious texts, i'd like to hear your personal opinions from purely rational viewpoints
lol, wut? The very first thing Lucifer did was tempt Adam and Eve to lead them astray from God to create sin. In the beginning there was no sin, and we had a perfect world.
So our suddenly gaining the ability to discern right from wrong by eating a magic fruit fundamentally altered reality?
We were already saved before Lucifer came down and screwed it all up, he destroyed that perfect world.
If we are to go by the Bible God put him down here.
you guys may not like it, but when we are dead, then either I'm right, or you're a rotting corpse.
Or it could be one of the thousands of other religions, or a view nobody hold giving us nearly infinite other possibilities.
So I thought if it's not observable then it could be like a soul. Which often is said isn't observable.
It's indirectly observable. For example Dark Energy is likely the reason why the universe is expanding faster. So it's nothing like a soul as we have real physical effects that can be attributed to it.
whoa, I was only gone for dinner and now we are talking about matter? how did it change so dramatically? last I saw, I was debating with Avorne on the divine plan (from what I read in here, it didn't stick, too bad), and now we are just hashing about dark matter. lol, I guess that means I should probably get off this thread now.
whoa, I was only gone for dinner and now we are talking about matter? how did it change so dramatically? last I saw, I was debating with Avorne on the divine plan (from what I read in here, it didn't stick, too bad), and now we are just hashing about dark matter. lol, I guess that means I should probably get off this thread now.
It turned to dark matter when someone, (I think Dair5) suggested that the "soul" could be some unknown particle, and it turned to dark matter.
So our suddenly gaining the ability to discern right from wrong by eating a magic fruit fundamentally altered reality?
Apparently. The Bible seems to simply say it's what got us the boot from the Garden of Eden. Paradise Lost seems to support the notion that it's what actually knocked the earth off its axis. Frankly, I find the Paradise Lost version cooler.
There was some novel I read in which angels stood at a 23.4 degree angle from the surface of the planet, apparently unaffected by gravity, because they still stood on the earth as it was "meant" to be. It's also apparently why Eden was pleasantly temperate all year.
Apparently. The Bible seems to simply say it's what got us the boot from the Garden of Eden.
What got us the boot was God was concerned we would also eat from the tree of life and become immortal. Apparently the combination of eternal life and knowing good and evil was enough to make us equals to God and he didn't want that happening.
Paradise Lost seems to support the notion that it's what actually knocked the earth off its axis.
What got us the boot was God was concerned we would also eat from the tree of life and become immortal. Apparently the combination of eternal life and knowing good and evil was enough to make us equals to God and he didn't want that happening.
Paradise Lost also seemed at least related to the school of thought suggesting that humans were made to eventually become angels, replacing the ones that fell from heaven. That would suggest God did want that to happen, but... not then, for some reason. It's an interesting perspective.
Sounds to me like that book fails at science.
Literature must be really boring for you. You'd probably read The Sound and the Fury and not only completely miss the point, but think yourself clever in missing it, if your approach to Paradise Lost is anything to go by.
Literature must be really boring for you. You'd probably read The Sound and the Fury and not only completely miss the point, but think yourself clever in missing it, if your approach to Paradise Lost is anything to go by.
Not at all. But if it's making statements like the one you suggest and is suppose to be taken as an actual event in the same context as the Bible then it fails. Though I see it as having about as much relevance to the Biblical accounts as Dantes Inferno. Which leads me to wonder why you are going on about it.
Thank you for rejoining us xzeno. I think i may tend to agree with Mage here, as we talked about earlier paradise lost isn't the bible, and therefore not the beliefs of any christian sect i know of though it does pertain to the bible. Also, i thought that when humans died and went to heaven they weren't supposed to become angels even now? otherwise there would be no need for saints...
Yep, I gotta say about that. The common term "Learn from your mistakes" is often one of the basis' that people think that evil needs to be there or there is no good. Perhaps when there is good we are afraid of bad? Striving towards an even better life?
The typical term is learn from your mistakes but not ones that kills millions of people and scar many for life.
look, according to my belief, God created us by a divine plan for us all to come back to him. he needed to have laws so people could choose to follow or break them. if there were no laws, then nobody would do evil. if there was evil, then there was also no good because one has to be there for the other to occur. no good meant that we couldn't return to him in the end. that was why the laws were created, to give us free agency. no free agency would mean we couldn't reject our inner evil to return to him. let's face it, humans are evil by nature. evil is essential for the existience of good people who can combat evil.
And I believe that this is stupid and you are wrong. There is no good or evil there is only different peoples morals. Hitler thought he was good because he followed his morals. And by making evil god is sending people to an eternity in hell. It would be better if everyone was good ad we all went to heaven since it would be heaven on earth. Evil is here just because different people were brought up in diffeent ways and have different morals. There is no reason for god to have made it.
let's face it, humans are evil by nature.
No, humans are moral by nature. They just have different morals.
oh cmon, if you're going to insult god's existence, could you at least be more respectful? there is a system of laws. if there wasn't, then you wouldn't be able to disrespect him the way you just did. in fact, there were two people who wanted to do the work of the redeemer. jesus and lucifer. if lucifer had done it, there would be no choices (like your choice to be an atheist avorne) at all, but since jesus came we get to make the choices that are available to us today. of course you wouldn't agree because your belief is built to reject the idea from your life.
OK, just so long as your sky fairy can show that he has a likely chance of existing as it is impossible to live for an infinite time and do something after infinity which the bible says he did.
