I've been thinking about this for a long time now...
Everyone seems to view "God" as some great guy who created absolutely everything and loves each and every one of us individually and equally. Hell is where everyone "EVIL" goes when they die, under certain circumstances.
We are Imperfect creatures. If God made us, he purposely made us imperfect. He blames us for our sins and makes us ask for forgiveness for our sins but we sin because we are imperfect because he made us imperfect o.O
God is omniscent. He decides what happens yadda yadda yadda... So he decides beforehand if someone will go to heaven or hell, meaning we have no control of our lives? So since I'm atheist I was decided long ago that I would be an atheist and I would be ****ed to hell but I had no control of it? Sort of Fatalistic and nasty.
still, the people wanted them to set them free and not run away. if they would just run away they would always live in fear that one day they will attack them again. everything god did in that situation was to make the paraoh give freedom to the people instead of just running away from there. (and if that wasnt enough he still chased them... i guess pride was more important then his people loss?)
So in the end they ran away anyway. God could have easily prevented the Pharaoh from chasing them at least long enough so they could become strong enough to defend themselves.
again, i will never know if they were really bad. but at least that is the explanation. it sais that all of the living creatures (including kitties XD) were bad. my point in this thread isnt the punishment, its the sin. even if the punishment is bad in most of our opinions the sin was still being bad and not something like racism.
It says all the people were corrupt, not all creatures.
Considering in Abrahamic belief,when the Azrael(angel of the death) absorbing a soul the time is expanding to that subject so that may taste the death dearly or painfully according to the last breath of his/her life. Thus there is no easy death as in sleep. If you are to handle a case,you have to assume it as completely.
Which we know isn't accurate. Drowning is going to be a much more painful death then slipping into a deep coma or stroke. With a fatal stroke you just go numb and shut down.
But lets say this is accurate. Why would God have death work in such a cruel way so that any form of death is a long drawn out form of suffering?
Since the children is not responsible from their acts in Abrahamic belief,they are claimed to directly to the heaven even if they died as atheists. And they emrace death dearly again.
The hell has that got to do with anything?
Even if these are true since bible is sending bible to hell with its contradicts, We dont know whether pharoah and his soldiers were going to continue to tyrannize over the innocent or not. Since they all seen Moses's miracles and yet they drowned where were their mind pursuing to kill Moses ?
I wasn't even talking about the part where he drowns the pursuers. However even here God could have stopped them without killing them.
We dont know yet. Maybe it was their salvation or repent for their motives. God's motives must carry deep effects since He forsee that we cannot rationally in this state of vantage point.
Yes we do know that. Unless you really think calling someone a name is worth being mauled to death, just for one example. Hardly call a slow painful death salvation.
But lets say this is accurate. Why would God have death work in such a cruel way so that any form of death is a long drawn out form of suffering?
I pointed that they chose it already.
The hell has that got to do with anything?
The children dont suffers in any way of death i meant. Their ignorant and cruel parents suffer thus the indulged their motives by sending them to that man whom loved by bears.
I wasn't even talking about the part where he drowns the pursuers. However even here God could have stopped them without killing them.
Consider a serial killer/rapist is condemned to jail. He or she will continue to the killing/raping spree.
Yes we do know that. Unless you really think calling someone a name is worth being mauled to death, just for one example. Hardly call a slow painful death salvation.
Now this may be considered as blame shift since twas their choice to kill or love not God's. There are vast ways to embrace redemption or salvation. You know there is a contradict as God forbids killing unless having a danger to lives. When God forbids something, He doesnt do it at the first hand as the gossip case btw Moses and God.
the god in judaism is more about judge then forgiving. the punishhments may seemm cruel but they are always fair. also god does forgive too thhse whoh oaactually feel sorry for thheir deeeds.and when i thinnk about it god was vvery foorgiiving in the egyp situaation. if it was realy al abbout judgment hed kill all the male babies and make the eggypts slaves. he diddnt do that. he gave 2signals annd 9 strikes that araentt coneected streight to death. even after thhe 10tth strike and aafteer a giant pole of firre attacked the egypts they stilll chased the peeople. he gaavae the egypts so many chaancces to justs baack downn and leave tthem aalone but they fought to theirr laast moment.
i proomisse i wwilll also answerr the other things... but this keyeboaard iis just too annoyying... so too be continuedd AGAIN XD
The children dont suffers in any way of death i meant.
So your seriously saying being mauled by a bear isn't a painful and cruel death?
Consider a serial killer/rapist is condemned to jail. He or she will continue to the killing/raping spree.
Your point being? God could prevent them from reaching Moses and his people without killing them. Further more that doesn't explain the killing of the innocent people under the Pharaohs rule. By your analogy that's like killing the victim to prevent them from being assaulted.
Now this may be considered as blame shift since twas their choice to kill or love not God's.
They didn't kill, they just called someone a name. God was the one who killed. Your the one shifting the blame by trying to dismiss such cruel actions by God and saying it's all our fault.
You know there is a contradict as God forbids killing unless having a danger to lives.
There are parts int he Bible where it says to kill when it wasn't a danger to lives.
the punishhments may seemm cruel but they are always fair.
How being mauled by a bear for calling someone a name fair?
he gaavae the egypts so many chaancces to justs baack downn and leave tthem aalone but they fought to theirr laast moment.
That was hard to read.
It doesn't matter how many chances he gave he still killed innocent bystanders when he could have gotten Moses and his people free without such methods. Further more being God he would have known non of those things he did would work.
Blaming His existence in our way of think is not making sense without including that system of God offers. Which is told that He is the Guardian whom refuges his name. Thus ' victims didnt asked help from God' opinion appears. Which we cant exactly deny in order not to observe death told so.
So your seriously saying being mauled by a bear isn't a painful and cruel death?
I m stating that there are possibilities since we are talking about a different being with skeptical resources and facts,which means we dont know a bit about this system if inherited.
Your point being? God could prevent them from reaching Moses and his people without killing them. Further more that doesn't explain the killing of the innocent people under the Pharaohs rule. By your analogy that's like killing the victim to prevent them from being assaulted.
You subdue God to save that you think is necessary and at your conditions. And i am suggesting that maybe that way was necessary to earn their eternal future. Since our recipe must last short judging by history cycles. Who knows that not letting them die means a brighter future ? We cant tell both ways either.
Blaming His existence in our way of think is not making sense without including that system of God offers. Which is told that He is the Guardian whom refuges his name. Thus ' victims didnt asked help from God' opinion appears. Which we cant exactly deny in order not to observe death told so.
Can you repeat that but make sense next time? The only part I think I got was the victim not asking for help from God. Which makes no sense since it's God who's the assailant here.
I m stating that there are possibilities since we are talking about a different being with skeptical resources and facts,which means we dont know a bit about this system if inherited.
If your using a translator try a different one. Because you sound a bit incoherent.
You subdue God to save that you think is necessary and at your conditions.
No I'm using the conditions that have been stated as to how this being is suppose to be. This all loving and compassionate being doesn't even match up with the love and compassion that a limited human can show.
And i am suggesting that maybe that way was necessary to earn their eternal future.
How the hell was it at all necessary to kill people who were uninvolved just for being there? This is just lame excuse making.
Since our recipe must last short judging by history cycles. Who knows that not letting them die means a brighter future ? We cant tell both ways either.
Even if it did the methods use were cruel. If this was done by any other figure real or imaginary I would bet you would agree. But since it's God you seem to wan to go out of your way to excuse it away. I say bull! This special pleading is getting old fast.
Mage you are so petulant today. Normally i would look forward for your posts but i m sticking to the games. Thanks for your time and forgive me for my rudeness.
Man! Where to begin, where to begin? Basically, the argument between Mage and akqpars devolved into Old Testament arguments about the morality of God's actions. Really, I can't truthfully give you an answer to why God sent bears to maul children. Let me talk to my pastor and get back to you on that. But the sense of the Flood is that it killed all of the sinners while saving the righteous and the animals (Noah took two of each type you retards). Yes, even the babies would have grown to be evil in the eyes of the Lord, because they would have been raised in those evil habits and practices. Wow. So much to argue. The reason God killed the Firstborn of all of the Egyptian households was because they were old enough to have been raised in hatred of the Jews (or Israelites. I am gonna call 'em Jews personally), and they would have fostered a greater hatred if the Jews killed or caused the deaths of their fathers. The reason He killed all of the Egyptian pursuers was because if the Egyptians had a large army, they could come back one day and overcome the Jews, considering they were a foundling, nomadic nation at this time. Also, a lot of the comments from the atheists have come from an actual lack of knowledge about the Bible. You are definitely making a bad case for yourself if you speak from ignorance. Ahhh. So much, so much. I feel like I am writing an English essay here. The thing about the formation of sin is, God did NOT make us perfect. He made us so that we had a choice. He gave Adam and Eve a choice. They were not perfect, because they had a choice. Perfection is basically doing hte exact right thing all the time, with no option to do the wrong thing. They were as close to perfect as you could get, but they had one, single, choice. Leave the fruit or eat it. They chose the route away from perfection. And btw, even if the Bible is God's propaganda, why have we seen so many great things happen that God said would happen in the Bible? I haven't seen Satan do anything good for anybody lately. But, you can take what I say with a grain of salt, I am a fairly infant Christian. I have just been raised with the Bible, and know a lot of doctrine. Talk to your local Bible church pastor, or any denomination really. I won't suggest talking to a Catholic priest, because I disagree with a lot of their doctrine. But, I digress.
even if the Bible is God's propaganda, why have we seen so many great things happen that God said would happen in the Bible?
Like....?
(Noah took two of each type you retards).
As if 2 of every animal in the world could fit on that boat. Much less the food/water required to feed them for 40 days, and that of Noah and his family, along with the fact that the animals would kill each other, although if you wanted to argue that god could just stop them if he wanted to. Also, evolution IS proven, and there'd be so much inbreeding from just 2 animals there would be many serious birth defects in all the animals, and so many more problems with Noah's ark.
The reason God killed the Firstborn of all of the Egyptian households was because they were old enough to have been raised in hatred of the Jews (or Israelites. I am gonna call 'em Jews personally), and they would have fostered a greater hatred if the Jews killed or caused the deaths of their fathers.
So God once again proves he's a hipocrite and kills those who have not yet done wrong because he knows that they would, showing that they both do not have free will and that God does not allow it.
Also, a lot of the comments from the atheists have come from an actual lack of knowledge about the Bible. You are definitely making a bad case for yourself if you speak from ignorance.
Example of a quesiton that comes from a lack of actual knowledge?
He gave Adam and Eve a choice
Bull****. If he's an omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient god, he would have forseen that Satan would be evil, that he would corrupt Adam and Eve, meaning that they had no choice. There IS no free will if God is omniscient and omnipotent, as he would know everything before it happens, which means it HAS to happen that way or he's wrong if it doesn't. Plus, Adam and Eve were completely innocent. How were they supposed to know Satan was lying to them? They had no concept of right and wrong.
. But the sense of the Flood is that it killed all of the sinners while saving the righteous and the animals (Noah took two of each type you retards). Yes, even the babies would have grown to be evil in the eyes of the Lord, because they would have been raised in those evil habits and practices.
But the babies weren't evil right? Couldn't an omnipotent let the babies survive?! And do you really think that a species can survive with only 2 individuals? That means a lot of inbreeding... But I don't want to start a "Did the great flood really happen"-discussion. You can only lose. Here's a video for you with some arguments: The Great Flood
Also, a lot of the comments from the atheists have come from an actual lack of knowledge about the Bible. You are definitely making a bad case for yourself if you speak from ignorance.
Either you give us an example for that statement or you don't say it.
Perfection is basically doing hte exact right thing all the time, with no option to do the wrong thing.
Wait a second. I thought God was perfect AND omnipotent? According to you that isn't possible!
And btw, even if the Bible is God's propaganda, why have we seen so many great things happen that God said would happen in the Bible?
Well, I know it is a cop out, but I did say to take everything I stated with a grain of salt. Seriously, if you really care about this stuff, go talk to your local pastor. If you don't at least do that, then you don't really care about what you are fighting for.
Well, I know it is a cop out, but I did say to take everything I stated with a grain of salt. Seriously, if you really care about this stuff, go talk to your local pastor. If you don't at least do that, then you don't really care about what you are fighting for.
A grain of salt? Did you take it from that pillar that was once Lot's wife?
And the local pastures never read the Bible, so they won't know. Instead ask your local atheist, they seem to be the only ones who actually read the bible.
Seriously, if you really care about this stuff, go talk to your local pastor.
My local pastor will say that these are just stories and metaphors. In Europe most Christians don't take the bible literally. But then I'd have to ask why I should take anything in the bible literally. In the end he'd say that I would need faith. That's it. And why should a pastor know how to interpret the bible? If it was really God's holy book then I think everybody should be able to understand it. Just sayin'. BTW I'm planning to leave the church so if the pastor wants to talk to me then maybe I'll ask him some questions
, if you really care about this stuff, go talk to your local pastor
Pastors don't know that much about their own religion, sadly. I was raised as a Christian, I asked my parents/people at church things about the bible/god, the only answers I ever got were, "Only god knows why" or "You just have to believe" etc. No real answers, because there are none, because it simply isn't true. Looking at the entire thing, it's so laughable that anyone does, it's got more holes than swiss cheese and stinks more than a squashed stink bug in a porta-potty.
