ForumsWEPRNew York Wall Street Protest

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Sssssnnaakke
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Sssssnnaakke
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They have been going on for 4-5 days now and I just now heard about this and what's going on. I hope Wall Street does something or there will be a massive protest there probably as bad as the French Revolution just not as extreme.

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partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

Basically what this means is a corporation can have the same influence on government as an individual has. More so actually since they have the financial backing that no individual can amass. This gave corporations the ability to fiance elections as much as the want without limits (link). It's like someone having all the social rights without any of the social responsibility.


to solve this you can only change the 3rd rule and make a max amount or even 0 if you want. thats very possible but removing the rights a company has is just wrong. companys need those rights. whitout rights they have nothing to back them up to make money.

why should the shareholders be held responsible for what the corporation does

shareholders are partly owner of the company. shareholders can influens what the companys are doing. there are special meeting for that.

CEOs and CFOs can be held personally liable for the company's violations

that depends on the size of the company and how the company is registered. except for when the company is doing criminal activetys then they can be hold responsable always.
MageGrayWolf
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to solve this you can only change the 3rd rule and make a max amount or even 0 if you want. thats very possible but removing the rights a company has is just wrong. companys need those rights. whitout rights they have nothing to back them up to make money.


It's not saying they shouldn't have rights, it's saying they shouldn't have the same rights as if they were an individual person, and this is something that was set into action very recently so they have been operating just fine without this status.
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
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shareholders are partly owner of the company. shareholders can influens what the companys are doing. there are special meeting for that.


I didn't finish my sentence last time. Woops. Anyway, it would like be like fining BP shareholders 5,000 dollars because of the BP oil spill. Not only that, but should we also fine the customers since they also play a part in supporting what a company does?

It's not saying they shouldn't have rights, it's saying they shouldn't have the same rights as if they were an individual person, and this is something that was set into action very recently so they have been operating just fine without this status.


I have a few questions.

What are the differences in corporate rights and individual rights?

Should we distinguish big businesses from small businesses? Should they have the same rights? If not, what rights should be different?

Those are questions about rights, now I have some about regulation.

Should everyone follow the same regulations no matter how big/small their business?

Would a lemonade stand be considered a business and should it have to follow corporate regulations? If it depends on the size of the lemonade stand, at which point does a lemondade stand become big enough that it must obey certain regulations?



The reason I ask all these questions is because the limitations applied to corporations effect trade of all different kinds. Surely I don't need to bring up the times when police shut down little girl's lemonade stands.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

It's not saying they shouldn't have rights, it's saying they shouldn't have the same rights as if they were an individual person


then wich rights should they have?
sofar i know companys do not have the right to marry for example xD

it would like be like fining BP shareholders 5,000 dollars because of the BP oil spill.


they got the fine because the company they own was spilling to oil right? i don't see the problem whit them getting that fine. and to be real. 5000 dollars? thats almost nothing.

should we also fine the customers since they also play a part in supporting what a company does?


the customers of the oil did not own the oil when it was spilled. the customers were 100% unable to prevent it or something.

Should we distinguish big businesses from small businesses


you should, small companys work very different from big once. the whole setup of those 2 kinds are different.
also in small companys the owner is more close to what is actualy happening in the company instead of just leading it like in big companys.

at which point does a lemondade stand become big enough that it must obey certain regulations?


in the netherlands we dropped the small and middle size company on the same table and drawed a line at 1000+ for a company to be consideret big. also have we a group for people that are their own boss and have no employes. (1 man companys)
partydevil
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partydevil
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"1000+ employes" that was in the last part of my last post =)

MageGrayWolf
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What are the differences in corporate rights and individual rights?


By the looks of it goumas might be able to answer you better then I could. One of the big ones I'm aware of is the ability to donate to political campaigns. An individual can donate as much as they like, prior to this change a corporation was restricted to how much they could contribute. Without this restriction a corporation can pretty much buy any candidate they wish. Some of the stuff already posted may have already covered other issues with this already.

Should we distinguish big businesses from small businesses? Should they have the same rights? If not, what rights should be different?


Not sure how much others will agree but I would think as a business grows bigger it would need to take on more responsibility. Basically the small business should be allow to have the potential to grow.
If we have the same restrictions on a small business that a big one has the small business is likely going to be unable to get it's foot in the door.
If we leave things completely unrestricted the big business can just create a monopoly/oligopoly which can also prevent small businesses from being able to compete and forming.
In the first case we have the government restricting small business while the second it's the large corporations restricting small business. Thinking about it the way we have it now it's like the two have teamed up.

Should everyone follow the same regulations no matter how big/small their business?


I would say no that goes along with having to take more responsibility as one grows.

Anyway I would like to hear what others have to say, because I'm not sure if I'm getting my thoughts on this matter out.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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The reason I ask all these questions is because the limitations applied to corporations effect trade of all different kinds. Surely I don't need to bring up the times when police shut down little girl's lemonade stands.


More I think about it saying that Big Corp X has the same rights as a person is pretty much the same as saying that little girl selling lemonade is the same as Big Corp X. The two are clearly not on equal footing but in the eyes of the law they are treated as such.

I can't remember exactly but I think there was some issue about issuing law suites with this corporation being treated as a person. It gave corporations some sort of legal power that an actual person couldn't possibly compete with in this regard. Maybe someone could look into that.
NoNameC68
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they got the fine because the company they own was spilling to oil right? i don't see the problem whit them getting that fine. and to be real. 5000 dollars? thats almost nothing.


5,000 dollars is very far from nothing. Not only that, but the shareholders aren't responsible for the spill. That would be like me giving you 10 dollars to go to the store and picking up beer, then me having to pay part of your find when you hit another person.

Even if the shareholders aren't fined, the value of their shares should decrease if the company is fined.

you should, small companys work very different from big once. the whole setup of those 2 kinds are different.
also in small companys the owner is more close to what is actualy happening in the company instead of just leading it like in big companys.


Could you go into more detail? Because none of this seems to explain why the two should be treated differently. A big business may be ran differently than a small business in the same manner that one small business is ran differently than another small business.

in the netherlands we dropped the small and middle size company on the same table and drawed a line at 1000+ for a company to be consideret big. also have we a group for people that are their own boss and have no employes. (1 man companys)


What if a growing company is able to profit because they aren't regulated? As soon as the growing company grows to a certain size, they must go through more regulations which may ruin the business. This is how pre existing big businesses keep other companies from growing big.
partydevil
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the ability to donate to political campaigns


commen people are not allowed to donate money to political campaigns if they want to?
i mean people are free to choose who they give their money right?

Without this restriction a corporation can pretty much buy any candidate they wish


in the end it's the people that vote right?
the companys only donate money for the campaigns.
(companys are not allowed to vote. so companys already have less rights then individual people.)

If we leave things completely unrestricted the big business can just create a monopoly

thats the nice thing of a free market they are unable to create a monopoly because small companys will be able to do the same for less. only on a smaller scale/area. 2 small companys can take down 1 big companys if they work well.

If we leave things completely unrestricted the big business can just create a oligopoly
oligopoly only becomes reality if the demand for the prodect is low 1st and then instandly (or very fast as in few weeks, 1 year) becomes very populair. usualy when there is a oligopoly. new companys will fill in the holes prety fast.
if we talk about long term oligopoly then it's usely a product whit not much demand and then you just have to live whit it being a oligopoly.

If we leave things completely unrestricted

your saying companys are completely unrestricted now? thats prety far from the truth tbh.

which can also prevent small businesses from being able to compete and forming.


do you mean small companys that want to compete in the same scale/area is the big company? then small companys never have a chanch.
localy small companys can always compete whit big companys. taking that 1% of the big company. so whit enoufg small local companys and then fusing those can compete against a big company.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my thoughts on this matter out.
i got the same whit this last post of mine for today. i wrote it fast and i'm sleepy. so i hope i wrote it down as i ment to say it. (wich i doubt but w/e)

but i also whold like to point out again that this is still not going against the corruption in the politics.
if the politics are corrupted then nothing will realy change anyway.
NoNameC68
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What are the differences in corporate rights and individual rights?

By the looks of it goumas might be able to answer you better then I could. One of the big ones I'm aware of is the ability to donate to political campaigns. An individual can donate as much as they like, prior to this change a corporation was restricted to how much they could contribute. Without this restriction a corporation can pretty much buy any candidate they wish. Some of the stuff already posted may have already covered other issues with this already.

Should we distinguish big businesses from small businesses? Should they have the same rights? If not, what rights should be different?

Not sure how much others will agree but I would think as a business grows bigger it would need to take on more responsibility. Basically the small business should be allow to have the potential to grow.
If we have the same restrictions on a small business that a big one has the small business is likely going to be unable to get it's foot in the door.
If we leave things completely unrestricted the big business can just create a monopoly/oligopoly which can also prevent small businesses from being able to compete and forming.
In the first case we have the government restricting small business while the second it's the large corporations restricting small business. Thinking about it the way we have it now it's like the two have teamed up.


The only way a big corporation can restrict a small business is if they create laws, which can only be done through politicians and a powerful government.

If a corporation does somehow manage a monopoly in an unregulated market, then they must make sure that their goods are of quality and value that consumers want. When a giant corporation is able to sell goods at a cheaper price than say, a small business, then the consumers save more money allowing them to spend more in other parts of the market. Of course, despite what is commonly believed, it isn't always impossible for small businesses to compete with the bigger ones. As of now, the reason small markets can't grow is because of the government regulations, not because of a lack of regulations.

More I think about it saying that Big Corp X has the same rights as a person is pretty much the same as saying that little girl selling lemonade is the same as Big Corp X. The two are clearly not on equal footing but in the eyes of the law they are treated as such.


What's the difference between the two and how are these differences important? I know they are of separate size, but how does size make a difference?

I understand that a bigger corporation will have to take more responsibility than a girl selling lemonade, but wouldn't the responsibility and risk grow with the business? If the girl gives away lemonade, there's a small chance someone will get sick off of it. However, if a big corporation sells lemonade, there are more opportunities for things to go wrong. The opportunities are naturally present. Therefore, shouldn't the corporation be handled on the scale of the problems that it causes rather than having a whole set of different rules?
partydevil
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5,000 dollars is very far from nothing

on the stock market. 5000 can be compared to 100. it's not much.

the shareholders aren't responsible for the spill.

because they own stocks from BP they are partly owner of BP. so it was their company that spilled the oil. and so it was their responsibilety. it's just part of the risks you take when going into the stock market. only does this not happen so often and those stockholders did not realise that they were taking this risk.

Could you go into more detail?


i could if we were talking about dutch laws. what i ment whit "setup" is how the company is registered. i know that the usa and the netherlands have about the same basics. so thats why i can talk surly about that in this subject. but details is going to be harder because i don't know the usa laws on the matter. i did study it but thats some years ago. i havn't been busy whit it for a long time because (you probably already know) i'm not that big of a usa fan =)

so yea i wish i was able to explain in more detail but i'm unable. i wold need to seek up alot of things.

What if a growing company is able to profit because they aren't regulated

evry company is regulated here. if they are not regulated then then are not a real company and should stop selling their products on the market. in cases like this a judge is usualy saying for how long the person is unable to sell products in the future.
MageGrayWolf
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commen people are not allowed to donate money to political campaigns if they want to?
i mean people are free to choose who they give their money right?


Where did I say they weren't allowed? I said they could. A corporation unlike a a person was unable to donate unlimited amounts. There was only so much a candidate could take from corporations.

in the end it's the people that vote right?
the companys only donate money for the campaigns.
(companys are not allowed to vote. so companys already have less rights then individual people.)


They can greatly influence the course of elections by giving money to the candidate of their choice. Wit that candidate in place they can then influence that candidate threw the debt he owes to the corporation.

thats the nice thing of a free market they are unable to create a monopoly because small companys will be able to do the same for less. only on a smaller scale/area. 2 small companys can take down 1 big companys if they work well.


A big company could offer their services at the lower cost and on a larger scale since they have the money to back them. The product offered by the bigger company doesn't even have to be the better product so long as it's the more readily available. The advertising a big company can put in can function to be more convincing that a person should buy their crap over any quality product.

oligopoly only becomes reality if the demand for the prodect is low 1st and then instandly (or very fast as in few weeks, 1 year) becomes very populair. usualy when there is a oligopoly. new companys will fill in the holes prety fast.
if we talk about long term oligopoly then it's usely a product whit not much demand and then you just have to live whit it being a oligopoly.


Windows was fast becoming this, that's why the company was forced to have to break up into smaller branches by government restrictions.

your saying companys are completely unrestricted now? thats prety far from the truth tbh.


No I'm not saying that. I'm just putting form the other extreme. It seems when we thing of government regulations it's an either or situation. Neither extreme is good in my opinion. We need to find a middle ground and in the right places.

do you mean small companys that want to compete in the same scale/area is the big company? then small companys never have a chanch.
localy small companys can always compete whit big companys. taking that 1% of the big company. so whit enoufg small local companys and then fusing those can compete against a big company.


A big corporation can use it's larger influence issuing bullying tatics to deface a small company trying to gain ground in the same area if unrestricted. A corporation has the bigger voice and has no issue using that voice to do whatever it wants to crush anyone who get's in their way.
Since the government is basically in the back pocket of these corporations they not only can get away with doing this now but also have government backing while doing it.

but i also whold like to point out again that this is still not going against the corruption in the politics.
if the politics are corrupted then nothing will realy change anyway.


Some of the corruption in politics is the result of corporations being able to have these politicians in their back pocket.

then they must make sure that their goods are of quality and value that consumers want.


No they only have to make sure the people buying the product think this and they would be free to use any underhanded dirty tactic they want to in order to accomplish this.

As of now, the reason small markets can't grow is because of the government regulations, not because of a lack of regulations.


From what I can tell we are regulating the wrong way around the big corporations are getting the free ride when they neither need nor deserve it, while the smaller companys are getting put under a strangle hold.

What's the difference between the two and how are these differences important? I know they are of separate size, but how does size make a difference?

I understand that a bigger corporation will have to take more responsibility than a girl selling lemonade, but wouldn't the responsibility and risk grow with the business? If the girl gives away lemonade, there's a small chance someone will get sick off of it. However, if a big corporation sells lemonade, there are more opportunities for things to go wrong. The opportunities are naturally present. Therefore, shouldn't the corporation be handled on the scale of the problems that it causes rather than having a whole set of different rules?


As one get's more responsibilities in life we have to follow more rules. It's ridiculous to shut a little girls lemonade stand down because of the lack of a license but it isn't to do this to a big lemonade company that operates nation wide. You need the extra rules in place because more can go wrong on the larger scale.

It's like how a small group of people could operate effectively under an anarchy but use that on a large scale like a city and we end up with major problems.

Hope I explained myself okay that time.
partydevil
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Jester

Where did I say they weren't allowed? I said they could. A corporation unlike a a person was unable to donate unlimited amounts. There was only so much a candidate could take from corporations.


i had to delete that part. i saw it was still there after posting. (edit/ag3 ftw)

They can greatly influence the course of elections by giving money to the candidate of their choice.


some companys take 1 side. the others take a other side. and in the end people choose. all (both) candidates have companys and people behind them. that all (try to) influence the government and elections for what they think is best for them and/or ours.

A big company could offer their services at the lower cost and on a larger scale since they have the money to back them. The product offered by the bigger company doesn't even have to be the better product so long as it's the more readily available. The advertising a big company can put in can function to be more convincing that a person should buy their crap over any quality product.


yes owning a big company is awsome. thats why evry1 wold like to be the boss of 1 no? maybe not evry1 but still =P
small companys always have a chanch. all big companys have started small also. and about all have competition.

Windows was fast becoming this, that's why the company was forced to have to break up into smaller branches by government restrictions.


i think that passed my mind sometime. you know when this was?

We need to find a middle ground and in the right places.

youl need a good think tank to get over all the different restrictions. i could take months.

A big corporation can use it's larger influence issuing bullying tatics to deface a small company trying to gain ground in the same area if unrestricted. A corporation has the bigger voice and has no issue using that voice to do whatever it wants to crush anyone who get's in their way.


so what about a media ban for companies bigger then 5000 or 10000 employes?

Some of the corruption in politics is the result of corporations being able to have these politicians in their back pocket.


or a law that forbids donation at all. and all (both) candidates get some tax money for campaign. then in a few year whit all new people. there will be no corperative money in the government =)
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Jester

i think that passed my mind sometime. you know when this was?


I'd guess he means this.
zakyman
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zakyman
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some companys take 1 side. the others take a other side. and in the end people choose. all (both) candidates have companys and people behind them. that all (try to) influence the government and elections for what they think is best for them and/or ours.


Usually, big corporations tend to move toward the Republican side because they are all for deregulation which would allow the big businesses to to more things under less watch, which was partly what got us into this big recession in the first place.

so what about a media ban for companies bigger then 5000 or 10000 employes?


While a good idea, that is patently unconstitutional as it violates the right to the press clause in the First Amendment.

Neither extreme is good in my opinion. We need to find a middle ground and in the right places.


While that is a good idea, it would be impossible because both sides would complain about the regulations being too serious, or too soft. I see the regulations on big corporations changing every time the controlling party in Congress changes.
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