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PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

This is something that I've learned today about (you guessed it) Jehovah witnesses.

-They do go door to door and leave pamphlets.

-God counts days differently than we do. For example one of God's days could be millions of years for us, so Jehovah witnesses can believe in dinosaurs and Adam & Eve with all of them being created in the first seven days (even though it isn't mentioned in the bible).

-I also learnt that Jehovah witnesses don't believe in an after life where people goto heaven or hell, but believe that they'll be resurrected on a paradise earth that God will make.

-God's real name is Jehovah like the Devil's name is Lucipher.

-They've memerised a very large portion of the bible and can flip to it pretty quickly when asked to.

-Jehovah witnesses are a branch of Christians (I thought they were Jewish lol)

Just as an fyi there were three questions that I've asked that they didn't answer very well;

1. Why doesn't God create this paradise earth for everyone now to get rid of all this cruelty and injustice on this earth?

2. Since God is allegedly all knowing and all powerful why did he create Eve knowing she'd eat that apple?

3. How could God have been here for all time without ever being created?

P.S. I learnt this because they came to my door today and as a fyi I believe there is a creator, but don't know which creator created everything. I believe this because I CAN'T believe that everything we see around us was created by a big hot dense universe just expanding (the Big Bang Theory I think) because how can a universe be created from nothing? Then again how could the first creator have been created from nothing?

As you can see I digress lol

  • 46 Replies
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Crazy lol... Nothing can't have just always been here with no beggining. That's to illogical. A paradox I know


As I pointed out time as we know it didn't exist. That means no before in the sense that we would know it. So terms that imply an amount of time like "always" can only be used in the loosest of ways.

Quite so. So why choose to believe in an atheist point of view when you can choose to believe in a creator with a possible afterlife involved?


Again as I pointed out we have observations that when applied would allow this to be so (not saying that it is for sure). but we do not have even the slightest amount of evidence for God (or any god). This makes including an afterlife an even bigger jump to make.

Not too fond of any door to door proselytizing types.


I was walking down a sidewalk and had them pull up next to me jump out of their car and start trying to convert me.
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
1,707 posts
Nomad

Our observations of indicate that matter/energy might not require being created as it violates conservation of mass

Christians believe that God was never created and was always here. If you think about it Christians and atheists are very alike in irrational beliefs of how the universe was created.

we again could only answer this with "I don't know"

That's how you should be answering how matter/energy was always here from the beggining instead of saying it wasn't created, it was just here. The "I don't know" makes more sense.

Unless we have evidence to support this claim we could just as easily insert any number of claims all with equal validity.

There is an equal amount of evidence between matter/energy or God or god creating us. The amount is NONE. So you shouldn't be saying how impossible it is for God (or gods) existing and how likely it is energy/matter created the universe.

P.S. Don't lie to me, you know you did make a grammar mistake!
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

Not too fond of any door to door proselytizing types. My religious beliefs are my own, and they are personal. I dislike, and I mean intensely dislike, having some strangers come to my house for the purpose of religious chatting.

I don't mind it myself, I spent an hour debating with them until they had to leave to go to a different house lol... I can see what you mean though.

As I pointed out time as we know it didn't exist. That means no before in the sense that we would know it. So terms that imply an amount of time like "always" can only be used in the loosest of ways.

I don't really understand what you mean here.

Again as I pointed out we have observations that when applied would allow this to be so (not saying that it is for sure). but we do not have even the slightest amount of evidence for God (or any god). This makes including an afterlife an even bigger jump to make.

How did I know you were going to say something like this lol? People consider a bible evidence, people consider the miracles of Jesus evidence. I personally don't, but I believe this to be just as much evidence as the matter/energy theory. Of course all of these are just theories, no solid irrefutable evidence on anything.

The italics bit I agree with, I'm just hoping for it because what is the point of your life and being good if you get no reward out of it (i.e., an afterlife). What's the point of being good when you can be corrupt and get more stuff if there's no afterlife?
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

Sorry for triple post, but this is what I meant by italics part

This makes including an afterlife an even bigger jump to make.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

Quite so. So why choose to believe in an atheist point of view when you can choose to believe in a creator with a possible afterlife involved?

Because belief (or lack thereof), as long as it's taken seriously, isn't a choice.

Christians believe that God was never created and was always here. If you think about it Christians and atheists are very alike in irrational beliefs of how the universe was created.

So it is more rational to think that for an eternity before, there was nothing, and suddenly the whole world was created?
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

So it is more rational to think that for an eternity before, there was nothing, and suddenly the whole world was created?

No it's more rational to think that energy/matter has always been here without ever being created. Let me repeat that. It was always here without EVER being created. And then after an eternity it made a universe where it waited for another eternity to expand and create this planet.

Sarcasm.

I also never said it was more rational, just equally.

Because belief (or lack thereof), as long as it's taken seriously, isn't a choice.

How so
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Christians believe that God was never created and was always here. If you think about it Christians and atheists are very alike in irrational beliefs of how the universe was created.


At what point did I or anyone else state this is what I believe? All I stated was that this was just one possibility based on observable evidence.

I don't really understand what you mean here.


When the universe was just a hot dense spot there was no space. Time and space are one in the same. So the point when the universe was a hot dense spot there was no time as we know it.

How did I know you were going to say something like this lol? People consider a bible evidence, people consider the miracles of Jesus evidence. I personally don't, but I believe this to be just as much evidence as the matter/energy theory. Of course all of these are just theories, no solid irrefutable evidence on anything.


The Bible isn't evidence at all, this is a claim that requires evidence.

We can observe what happens to matter/energy. You can do it right now if you like. Take a piece of tissue paper and rip it up, everything that made up that tissue is still there. Try burning it, still everything that made up that tissue is still there, it's just in another state now. No matter what is done to it all that will happen is that the tissue will just change states. Try to do it the other way, make a tissue without using existing matter/energy. Now apply what has been observed with that tissue to all the matter/energy in the universe, what conclusion do you come to? If you find it can't be created or destroyed any of it, can we not conclude that it's possible that it could have always been around?

There is an equal amount of evidence between matter/energy or God or god creating us. The amount is NONE. So you shouldn't be saying how impossible it is for God (or gods) existing and how likely it is energy/matter created the universe.


What observation do we have to indicate could have always existed and what observation do we have to indicate God exists? I'll give you a clue on the first one. ^

What's the point of being good when you can be corrupt and get more stuff if there's no afterlife?


So you only do things to get stuff out of it and not to be helpful to others? As social animals it's a benefit to the species to have traits such as compassion, empathy, generosity and self sacrifice. So while an action might not benefit the individual it can benefit the group.
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

At what point did I or anyone else state this is what I believe? All I stated was that this was just one possibility based on observable evidence.

I never said you, I said atheists and Christians. I was speaking about the atheists that believed in the Big Bang Theory. I thought that was implied sorry.

When the universe was just a hot dense spot there was no space. Time and space are one in the same. So the point when the universe was a hot dense spot there was no time as we know it.

Well there was time, but no one was recording it correct? Where was the universe then other than space? In nothingness?

The Bible isn't evidence at all, this is a claim that requires evidence.

The Jehovah witness that I spoke to told me that about forty different people from different ages in time made parts of the current bible and that someone just combined all their thoughts into one book. People consider that evidence since it (the bible) doesn't contradict itself even though so many people from so many ages of time made the bible (says the Jehovah witness).

We can observe what happens to matter/energy. You can do it right now if you like. Take a piece of tissue paper and rip it up, everything that made up that tissue is still there. Try burning it, still everything that made up that tissue is still there, it's just in another state now. No matter what is done to it all that will happen is that the tissue will just change states. Try to do it the other way, make a tissue without using existing matter/energy. Now apply what has been observed with that tissue to all the matter/energy in the universe, what conclusion do you come to? If you find it can't be created or destroyed any of it, can we not conclude that it's possible that it could have always been around?

If you burn it in hot enough fire it will cease to exist no, it'll incinerate it? We can conclude that it's always around since it's been created by God's magical powers (or gods).

What observation do we have to indicate could have always existed and what observation do we have to indicate God exists? I'll give you a clue on the first one. ^

I said we don't have any evidence that God (gods) or matter/energy existed to create the universe as we know it. Since we have no evidence or irrefutable proof I'd rather hope in an afterlife instead of deny it.

Oh and I messed the clue lol...

So you only do things to get stuff out of it and not to be helpful to others? As social animals it's a benefit to the species to have traits such as compassion, empathy, generosity and self sacrifice. So while an action might not benefit the individual it can benefit the group.

Unless it directly benefits you (by improving your environment, the way people treat, how people view you in case you want to run for something later in life etc...) why do it?

I still act nice, morally and ethically (at least I think I do) and still will, (even if I thought there were no Gods or gods) but I don't understand why I should or why I do it.
MageGrayWolf
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I never said you, I said atheists and Christians. I was speaking about the atheists that believed in the Big Bang Theory. I thought that was implied sorry.


That wasn't just limited to myself. I do accept the Big Bang theory as the most valid explanation of how the universe developed. The theory does not follow back as far as you seem to be wanting to take it in this discussion. It's like saying a cake recipe can't be correct because it doesn't explain where the ingredients comes from.

Well there was time, but no one was recording it correct? Where was the universe then other than space? In nothingness?


Not time as we know it no. The universe was just a singularity. To better answer your question we have to get into a theory I'm not very familiar with called M theory. With this it proposes other hypotheses to where the singularity came from.

The Jehovah witness that I spoke to told me that about forty different people from different ages in time made parts of the current bible and that someone just combined all their thoughts into one book. People consider that evidence since it (the bible) doesn't contradict itself even though so many people from so many ages of time made the bible (says the Jehovah witness).


First off saying it's evidence because a bunch of different people said the same thing is an appeal to popularity, a fallacy. Just because a number of people claim the same thing doesn't make it so. The second problem here is the Bible is full of contradictions.

If you burn it in hot enough fire it will cease to exist no, it'll incinerate it?


No it doesn't, it only ceases to exist in the state that it was in.

We can conclude that it's always around since it's been created by God's magical powers (or gods).


This again runs into the same problem as claiming an afterlife as you first have to presuppose God's existence in the first place. Again we also run into the issue of the use of magic as an explanation, an explanation that has consistently failed at every turn thus far.

I said we don't have any evidence that God (gods) or matter/energy existed to create the universe as we know it. Since we have no evidence or irrefutable proof I'd rather hope in an afterlife instead of deny it.


What? We have matter/energy all over the place as evidence of it's existence. It's not unreasonable to hypotheses that it existed in the past.
Wishful thinking is rather meaningless to determining reality. So it doesn't matter if you hope there is one or not.

Unless it directly benefits you (by improving your environment, the way people treat, how people view you in case you want to run for something later in life etc...) why do it?

I still act nice, morally and ethically (at least I think I do) and still will, (even if I thought there were no Gods or gods) but I don't understand why I should or why I do it.


It's done as a matter of survival of the species. As I said we are social animals, as such we have developed traits such as the ones mentioned that would compel use to do things that might not directly benefit our individual self but instead benefit the group.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

I also never said it was more rational, just equally.

Then I didn't really understand what you were comparing or trying to say.
And you just used 'more rational' in this very same post... :P

How so

Because belief is what you believe in, whether it suits you or not. You seem to have a looser idea of it, that you can choose the belief that makes you happy and then state it's what you think is true. That you can choose to worship whatever god as long as that religion says there's an afterlife, only because you want that an afterlife exists. Do you believe in afterlife or only want to believe?
I personally never believed in any deity, because it is my deep conviction that there is none. Of course I am also convinced that science is right in most of it's theories, and that it's the way to explain things; but it isn't the reason why I am atheist per se. It just supports me in my lack of belief. And I never chose it myself to be that way.

See what I mean?
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

That wasn't just limited to myself. I do accept the Big Bang theory as the most valid explanation of how the universe developed.

If you accept it then why are you trying to argue, by saying things like? "Who said I believe this"

. The theory does not follow back as far as you seem to be wanting to take it in this discussion.

The length of time I'm talking about is when matter/energy created the universe.

Not time as we know it no. The universe was just a singularity. To better answer your question we have to get into a theory I'm not very familiar with called M theory. With this it proposes other hypotheses to where the singularity came from.

Idk about that, I think there was probably time, but people don't call it time because there was no way to record it and it probably differed from ours jumping forwards in years then backwards with no apparent diffirence.

First off saying it's evidence because a bunch of different people said the same thing is an appeal to popularity, a fallacy. Just because a number of people claim the same thing doesn't make it so

When so many people (millions upon millions) believe in something it must have a hint of truth in it at least. Or it's the best f___ing lie out there lol

The second problem here is the Bible is full of contradictions.

I thought you might say that lol, but perhaps you didn't read the whole bible or misconstrued some of it. Secondly such as?

No it doesn't, it only ceases to exist in the state that it was in.

Ok then if you incinerate something what becomes of it?

This again runs into the same problem as claiming an afterlife as you first have to presuppose God's existence in the first place

This again runs into the same problem as claiming an afterlife doesn't exist as you first have to presuppose there is no God (or gods) in the first place. Especially when no one knows how the universe first began, it's all theories. You said it yourself, we don't know how it did.

What? We have matter/energy all over the place as evidence of it's existence. It's not unreasonable to hypotheses that it existed in the past.

I said evidence that it created the universe. Sure we see it all around, but that doesn't mean it created the universe. You're right it's not an unreasonable theory just like God isn't. For something couldn't have always just been here, something would've had to creare the matter/energy. But there's the same paradox with God. So we are left with the same conclusion of we don't know and probably never will.

Wishful thinking is rather meaningless to determining reality. So it doesn't matter if you hope there is one or not.

I'm not using wishful thinking to determine reality, just wishful thinking that there might be an afterlife.

It's done as a matter of survival of the species. As I said we are social animals, as such we have developed traits such as the ones mentioned that would compel use to do things that might not directly benefit our individual self but instead benefit the group.

Doesn't make sense though does it? Why care about the survival of your species if you could live awesomely during your life time and there's no afterlife to reprimand you (or as the Jehovah witnesses believe a resurrection).

I'm saying there is an equal amount of evidence that God, gods, or matter/energy created everyone. Does that clear it up?

See what I mean?

Well it's still a choice no?
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

Then I didn't really understand what you were comparing or trying to say.

I'm saying there is an equal amount of evidence that God, gods, or matter/energy created everyone. Does that clear it up?

Sorry forgot that first quote to what Hai said...
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

Well it's still a choice no?

It's a choice whether you adhere to a religion or not, and if you do, to which. It's a choice which religious lifeguide you want to follow. But you can't choose your convictions, right?
PanzerTank
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PanzerTank
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Nomad

It's a choice whether you adhere to a religion or not, and if you do, to which. It's a choice which religious lifeguide you want to follow. But you can't choose your convictions, right?

I still find that to be a choice since you get to choose the religion you follow. I see what you mean, but disagree that you don't have a choice.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Jester

Ok then if you incinerate something what becomes of it?

It turns into a gas. The amount of matter in the universe is finite. When wood is fully burned, it dosen't simply turn into nothing: it converts into smoke (CO2).
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