ForumsWEPRYou support Israel? I DO

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bobbyr5
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bobbyr5
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Nomad

I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Theres no reason at all why the Israeli-Arab conflict is the only non American conflict that hits the Western front pages so very often (or the UN votes).


Mainly because as of now, the two are still at war, or at least Israel is with some PLO factions. Also because of the fact that the US is Israel's biggest ally, and because any instability could affect a) Oil, and b) The war on terror.

Did you for example hear about the series of wars between India and Pakistan?


Erm who hasn't? But India and Pakistan recognize each other, and because they have nuclear deterrence against each other that a full scale war would be suicidal. India and Pakistan do make headlines (Kashmir, terrorism etc), but the fact is that they aren't currently at war or recently been at war.

And actually no, the Israeli-Arab wars caused more casualties if you want to be pedantic.
inflict
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inflict
381 posts
Shepherd

israel are in a very tough political position. the pals need to let it gooo. its not like the surrounding country's are over populated.

GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad


And actually no, the Israeli-Arab wars caused more casualties if you want to be pedantic.

Not really but im not going to bother bringing up numbers here, but its something i suggest you look at. The media can easily get you missinformed about the numbers.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Zaky and Master are from Israel. It matters to them. Don't go shooting off when you don't comprehend how important it is to him.


I'm American. I am also Jewish. Thus, the connection.

Imagine a father gives his two sons half a cake each. Subsequently, one of them takes the half from his brother and then offers him a sweet as consolation. That's how unfair it is.

No, it's more like a father gives his two sons half a cake each. Subsequently, one of the sons calls his huge friends over to take his bro's cake. The big guy loses, so the second son takes the other half of the cake. The first son then goes and cries for 60 years about how unfair it is that the second son stole his cake.

Yes but ultimately, the Jews aim for a Jewish majority in a Jewish state. Religious or not, its aim is still to maintain its Jewish character.


Which is the basis for its existence...

israel are in a very tough political position. the pals need to let it gooo. its not like the surrounding country's are over populated.


Exactly. All of these Arab countries crying out for a recognized Palestinian state. How about instead of trying to take from the smallest country in the Middle East, they all help solve the problem.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

Exactly. All of these Arab countries crying out for a recognized Palestinian state. How about instead of trying to take from the smallest country in the Middle East, they all help solve the problem.

Because they rightly don't recognize the illegitimate state of Israel.
master565
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master565
4,104 posts
Nomad

Zaky and Master are from Israel


Neither of us are from Israel.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Because they rightly don't recognize the illegitimate state of Israel.


Read my analogy of the father and the cake. Also, if your argument is that because Israel was created by the UN, it is illegitimate, than any Palestinian state would be illegitimate because it was initially founded by the UN.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

No, it's more like a father gives his two sons half a cake each. Subsequently, one of the sons calls his huge friends over to take his bro's cake. The big guy loses, so the second son takes the other half of the cake. The first son then goes and cries for 60 years about how unfair it is that the second son stole his cake.


Two wrongs don't make a right. It still is blatantly stealing. No doubt the Palestinians are wrong, but the right of conquest is no longer recognised. If Israel is going to continue bullying the Palestinians, or their descendants, the majority of whom have never taken part in the conflict, they can't keep whining about rocket attacks when they blatantly bomb civilian areas to flush out militants.

Neither of us are from Israel.


My bad. Jewish. Close enough.

Exactly. All of these Arab countries crying out for a recognized Palestinian state. How about instead of trying to take from the smallest country in the Middle East, they all help solve the problem.


Lebanon is smaller. What they are trying to take is essentially what has been given to the Palestinians originally. And no, not all Arab states want to see Israel wiped out. We have already cited Jordan and Egypt as more or less neutral/friendlier states.


Not really but im not going to bother bringing up numbers here, but its something i suggest you look at. The media can easily get you missinformed about the numbers.


Indo Pakistan Wars:

1947 - ~11,000 wounded/dead
1965 - ~8000 wounded/dead
1971 - 27,000 wounded/dead

Arab/Israeli Wars:

1948 - Lowest estimate - 14,000 dead/wounded
Six Day War - Lowest estimate - 18,000 dead/wounded
Yom Kippur - Lowest estimate 36,000 dead/wounded

Go figure. Also, the media/academic literature are the only sources of such material, unless you go out and count all the bodies. Scepticism can only go so far before it becomes foolish and naive.


Also, if your argument is that because Israel was created by the UN, it is illegitimate, than any Palestinian state would be illegitimate because it was initially founded by the UN.


Assuming both were legitimate from the onset, any right of conquest claims are nullified according to international law. The completion of colonial conquest of much of the world (see the Scramble for Africa), the devastation of World War I and World War II, and the alignment of both the United States and the Soviet Union with the principle of self-determination led to the abandonment of the right of conquest in formal international law. The 1928 Kellogg-Briand Pact, the post-1945 Nuremberg Trials, the UN Charter, and the UN role in decolonization saw the progressive dismantling of this principle. Simultaneously, the UN Charter's guarantee of the "territorial integrity" of member states effectively froze out claims against prior conquests from this process. Israel as it is today illegally holds land that it should not, and should be given back to the Palestinians. Financial compensation is a paltry and pathetic attempt that practically insults a stateless people.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Two wrongs don't make a right. It still is blatantly stealing. No doubt the Palestinians are wrong, but the right of conquest is no longer recognised. If Israel is going to continue bullying the Palestinians, or their descendants, the majority of whom have never taken part in the conflict, they can't keep whining about rocket attacks when they blatantly bomb civilian areas to flush out militants.


But at the time that the land was taken, it was. What you seem to fail to grasp is that Israel took over most of their land in defensive wars, and if they gave any more back any Arab country with a half-assed military could destroy them in an instant. The Gaza Strip currently follows the pre-1967 lines, a generous gift from Israel to see if the Pals could control themselves. They cannot, and elected a terrorist organization to lead them, and now cry persecution from Israel due to bombings from them due to rockets launched by Hamas. Is this guilt by association? Partly, but in any blockade situation (like the current one off of Gaza), innocents and civilians all suffer. It is simply poor luck of the draw.

Lebanon is smaller. What they are trying to take is essentially what has been given to the Palestinians originally. And no, not all Arab states want to see Israel wiped out. We have already cited Jordan and Egypt as more or less neutral/friendlier states.


With the way things are going, the treaty with Egypt won't be worth a few squares of toilet paper. Jordan is still going to remain neutral toward Israel, but they probably won't be getting too friendly. And about the "given to the Palestinians originally" part: If I tried to take a cookie that you had, because I didn't want you to have a cookie, and I drop my cookie in the process, and it crumbles, that is all my fault. I am reminded of Aesop's story about the dog and the bone in this situation. The dog (Arabs/Palestinians) get a bone from a butcher. However, when they look in a river, they see another dog looking back at them (Israel). That dog has a bone also, but it is really just a reflection of the first dog. Dog #1, being greedy, snaps at the reflection, and drops his bone into the river. He has lost all opportunity to give it back. Here is where I add some new stuff. The dog's reflection is generous enough to give back most of the original bone that fell into the river, however Dog #1 still wants most of the reflection's bone.

What the world needs to accept, is that in these days, having a country which at its thinnest is just a few miles wide (Israel based on pre-1967 lines), is indefensible with modern day technology, even with an army as skilled as the IDF. Should a theoretical Palestinian state declare war for any reason, and bring in allies, Israel could be split in half, and then it would be a small matter to take over the two separated pieces. There needs to be negotiation, however the Palestinians cannot have any preconceived notions that they are entitled to get all that they ask.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

But at the time that the land was taken, it was. What you seem to fail to grasp is that Israel took over most of their land in defensive wars, and if they gave any more back any Arab country with a half-assed military could destroy them in an instant.


The Six Day war was defensive? Yeah, sure.

So, giving back some land to the Palestinians will somehow decrease their military strength and consequently let some Arab nation destroy them? Let us not forget Israel has the only nuclear arsenal in the region. Syria is embroiled in its own conflict. Iraq is more or less under the thumb of the Americans. Egypt and Jordan won't attack. So which Arab nation will now?

They cannot, and elected a terrorist organization to lead them, and now cry persecution from Israel due to bombings from them due to rockets launched by Hamas.


I gave a survey a few pages back that shows most Pals want peace, and that Hamas is predicted to lose the next elections heavily.

With the way things are going, the treaty with Egypt won't be worth a few squares of toilet paper.


Proof? Anything can happen in the future. Just because a mob stormed an embassy doesn't mean that after the elections, provided that there are, will suddenly reverse Egypt's policies. Egpyt knows that it cannot stand up to Israel on its own.


The dog (Arabs/Palestinians) get a bone from a butcher. However, when they look in a river, they see another dog looking back at them (Israel). That dog has a bone also, but it is really just a reflection of the first dog. Dog #1, being greedy, snaps at the reflection, and drops his bone into the river. He has lost all opportunity to give it back. Here is where I add some new stuff. The dog's reflection is generous enough to give back most of the original bone that fell into the river, however Dog #1 still wants most of the reflection's bone.


Are we now going to compare international law with a fable? Not demaning the morality of the bedtime story, but the law clearly states that conquest is no longer a valid reason for holding onto hand.

And no, Israel has NOT given back much of the land that was the Palestinians. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are contemptible tidbits and scraps thrown from the feasting table.

Should a theoretical Palestinian state declare war for any reason, and bring in allies,


I am totally sure that Israel doesn't have its own allies.

and then it would be a small matter to take over the two separated pieces.

I am also totally sure that the UN or US won't intervene
when it sees Israel being destroyed.

There needs to be negotiation, however the Palestinians cannot have any preconceived notions that they are entitled to get all that they ask.


Israel grabbed the land allotted to the Palestinians. And that's that. Palestine might have started the war, but that doesn't give Israel a right to annex it. It could have called a truce and signed a peace treaty whilst calling in UN troops to enforce it, but no. They just took the entire piece of land, drove out hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and call it justice.
zakyman
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zakyman
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Peasant

The Six Day war was defensive? Yeah, sure.


As a preemptive strike on thousands of Egyptian troops massed at their border after Egypt kicked out the UN Peacekeeping force and closed the Suez Canal (a violation of international treaty), yes, it was completely defensive.

So, giving back some land to the Palestinians will somehow decrease their military strength and consequently let some Arab nation destroy them? Let us not forget Israel has the only nuclear arsenal in the region. Syria is embroiled in its own conflict. Iraq is more or less under the thumb of the Americans. Egypt and Jordan won't attack. So which Arab nation will now?


It doesn't matter the current state of affairs. 10, 20, 30 years in the future, most if all of these conflicts will be resolved, and some Arab countries still could be hostile toward Israel. If they attack, and Israel is back to the pre-1967 lines, they would be cut in half almost immediately if that nation found an ally in a theoretical Palestinian nation.

I gave a survey a few pages back that shows most Pals want peace, and that Hamas is predicted to lose the next elections heavily.


Well, come find me when they lose in the elections. Right now, the Pals need to deal with the path that they chose, and that path is celebrating the lives of "brave" suicide bombers and murderers.

Are we now going to compare international law with a fable? Not demaning the morality of the bedtime story, but the law clearly states that conquest is no longer a valid reason for holding onto hand.


It is not conquest if the land was acquired in a defensive war. Plus there is precedent for the losing side in a war to lose land. Have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles? How about almost any other treaty in existence where the losing side lost land? The Treaty of Paris? Yeah, Britain lost a TON of land in 1783. A whole 13 colonies. And how about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Mexico lost what is now a few American states!

I am also totally sure that the UN or US won't intervene
when it sees Israel being destroyed.


Do you mean that they will? Because if Israel is invaded, I don't really think that there will be a huge UN response. Maybe another "strongly worded letter." No. The US would be alone, and if they are lucky, they might, and I stress the might, get some help from NATO. Israel is the world's punching bag. The UN is a joke when it comes to impartially dealing with Israel. Of the resolutions made of the Middle East, most of them condemn Israel. Guess how many condemn the terrorism which started the action for the condemnation? Not a lot.

And no, Israel has NOT given back much of the land that was the Palestinians. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are contemptible tidbits and scraps thrown from the feasting table.


How about the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt? I never said that they gave all of the land back to the Pals. I have just said that Israel has given up the majority of what they have taken in defensive wars.

Proof? Anything can happen in the future. Just because a mob stormed an embassy doesn't mean that after the elections, provided that there are, will suddenly reverse Egypt's policies. Egpyt knows that it cannot stand up to Israel on its own.


Currently, the Muslim Brotherhood is standing to take control of the Egyptian Parliament. They don't exactly have fuzzy, warm feelings with Israel.

Israel grabbed the land allotted to the Palestinians. And that's that. Palestine might have started the war, but that doesn't give Israel a right to annex it. It could have called a truce and signed a peace treaty whilst calling in UN troops to enforce it, but no. They just took the entire piece of land, drove out hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and call it justice.


Do I have to bring the quote up again?

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees... while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children--all this in the service of political purposes...."
- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

As a preemptive strike on thousands of Egyptian troops massed at their border after Egypt kicked out the UN Peacekeeping force and closed the Suez Canal (a violation of international treaty), yes, it was completely defensive.


Fact is, they still started it. Israel was the first to declare war.

It doesn't matter the current state of affairs. 10, 20, 30 years in the future, most if all of these conflicts will be resolved, and some Arab countries still could be hostile toward Israel. If they attack, and Israel is back to the pre-1967 lines, they would be cut in half almost immediately if that nation found an ally in a theoretical Palestinian nation.


The conflict has been raging for 60 years, and I doubt a solution can be idealistically chanced upon so fast. Furthermore, all those statements you make about Arab hostility are just hypothetical. A bit like playing a guessing parlor game. Checks and balances throuh a web of alliances have worked for centuries, the most famous would be Bismark and his magic political wand.

Plus there is precedent for the losing side in a war to lose land. Have you heard of the Treaty of Versailles? How about almost any other treaty in existence where the losing side lost land? The Treaty of Paris? Yeah, Britain lost a TON of land in 1783. A whole 13 colonies. And how about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Mexico lost what is now a few American states!


I don't need a lecture on history seeing that . I have pointed out earlier on how international law has changed its view on conquest, and I don't intend to rehash what I clearly stated earlier when all the exaples you gave were before such a change in law, hence nullifying such examples.

One of the things many apologists claim is that Nasser created a casus belli by closing the straits of Tiran, so therefore Israel was justified in attacking Egypt. Several things need pointed out here. First that only 5% of Israel trade was at risk from this so called clo
sure (even the record demonstrates the Egyptians rarely enforced it). The major issue for Israel was oil from Iran (believe or not) and that could easily be sequestered through Haifa. Furthermore the navigable channel of the straits is only a mile from Egypt's shore, well within its territorial waters, and no state has ever been deemed to be enforcing a blockade of foreign shipping in its own territorial waters. Also as Egypt and Israel had been in a state of war since 1948, Egypt was well within its rights to prevent shipping to a belligerent state. Not that it had much effect, because as we've seen rarely did israel use the straits and infact in the previous two years no Israeli flagged vessel used the port of Eliat.

Furthermore the vast majority of Israel's commercial trade used Mediterranean ports. Now Egypt had refused to sign the 1958 Geneva Conventions on the Territorial Sea and Conitguous Zone because it didn't agree with the defitnion of 'strait'. Therefore Egypt was not a signatory, because as commonly understood only a passage between two areas of high seas is a strait, whereas the Straits of Tiran lead into the Gulf of Aqaba. The US secretary of State at that time John Foster Dulles agreed on the 'lausibility from the standpoint of international law' with regard to Egypt's stance. Arthur Dean, who headed the US delegation at the Geneva Conference admitted that this was a new interpretation directly aimed at the Straits of Tiran. Therefore the general view was that the convention did not reflect customary law. Even if it was agreed that Israel had a right to use the straits (even though some authorities agreed and others did not), it did not have the right to an armed attack to resolve the issue when there was still peaceful avenues to exhaust. That Israel chose not to pursue these peaceful avenues demonstrates that its attack on Egypt was not defensive and was indeed illegal.

Also U Thant acknowledged that Nasser wanted to restart the Egyptin-Israeli Mixed Armistice Commission(EIMAC) which was established as part of the agreements ending the 1948 war. Yet this became dead in the water after Israel unilaterally withdrew during the Suez, and whilst Nasser demonstrated willingness to reconvene it, Israel rejected all such approaches. Israel's belligerence was recalled later by U Thant

'if only Israel had agreed to permit UNEF to be stationed on its side of the border, even for a short duration, the course of history could have been different. Diplomatic efforts to avert the pending catastrophe might have prevailed; war might have been averted'

Another senior UN official, Brian Urquhart, when referring to Israel's refusal to a two week moratorium in the straits (which Nasser agreed to), writes in his memoir â"

'Israel, no doubt having decided on military action, turned down U Thant's ideas.'

Also the then US Secretary of State Dean Rusk recalls the cycnial surprise attack launched by Israel, instead of trying the diplomatic route, which nasser was open to â"

'when the Israelis launched the surprise offensive. they attacked on a Monday, knowing that on Wednesday the Egyptian Vice President would arrive in Washington to talk about re-opeing the Strait of Tiran. We might not have succeeded in getting Egypt to reopen the strait, but it was a real possibility'

Now lets look at what the Israeli leaders admittedâ"

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory." (Mordechai Bentov )

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war." (General Yeshayahu Gavish)

"I do not believe Nasser wanted war. the two divisions he sent into the Sinai on May 14th would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it." (General Rabin )

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger."(Chaim Herzog)

"In June l967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." (Menachem Begin)

How about the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt? I never said that they gave all of the land back to the Pals. I have just said that Israel has given up the majority of what they have taken in defensive wars.


The Sinai was already part of Egypt which the Israelis took, having no claim to it.

Currently, the Muslim Brotherhood is standing to take control of the Egyptian Parliament. They don't exactly have fuzzy, warm feelings with Israel.


That doesn't mean that war will break out given all practicalities.

Do I have to bring the quote up again?


Israel opened up part of its archives in the 1980s for investigation by historians. This coincided with the emergence of various Israeli historians, called New Historians, who favored a more critical analysis of Israel's history. The most famous scholar of this group, Benny Morris, concludes that Jewish military attacks were the main direct cause of the exodus, followed by Arab fear due to the fall of a nearby town, Arab fear of impending attack, and expulsions.

Also, Plan D.



Source
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Fact is, they still started it. Israel was the first to declare war.


But that doesn't mean that it is their fault. If I start writing letters of intent to say, punch you, and then make a fist along with menacing motions, and you decide to punch me first, it is my fault for the provocative actions.

The major issue for Israel was oil from Iran (believe or not) and that could easily be sequestered through Haifa.


Iran didn't hate Israel back then. In fact, they offered help in Operation Opera.

That doesn't mean that war will break out given all practicalities.


I never said that it would. However, that would mean another hostile nation in the area. Syria right now is unpredictable as a bomb, as it could explode at any time. Do you think that they would hesitate to attack Israel? No. They wouldn't. They have plenty reason to. The could, in a single move, pretty much destroy 44 years of work to attempt to build up trust in that area.

The Sinai was already part of Egypt which the Israelis took, having no claim to it.


Again, defensive war. They win the land, they don't give back. As for the rule of conquest, I looked it up and didn't see anything on the subject that was prior to the 6 Day War. That means that Israel's claims to the land are legal, as to make them illegal would be ex post facto.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Iran didn't hate Israel back then. In fact, they offered help in Operation Opera.


That's not the main point. I know that the Shah was friendly towards Israel and was pro-Western. The point of inserting Iran here is to show that such a closure of the straits would not jeopardise Israeli interests to the point of war.

But that doesn't mean that it is their fault. If I start writing letters of intent to say, punch you, and then make a fist along with menacing motions, and you decide to punch me first, it is my fault for the provocative actions.


Maybe you didn't read the entire chunk I put up there. And no, some people see it differently. I threaten you, but I didn't do anything. You can either call a high authority (UN), reason with them (Rejected by Israel), or back off.

As for the rule of conquest, I looked it up and didn't see anything on the subject that was prior to the 6 Day War. That means that Israel's claims to the land are legal, as to make them illegal would be ex post facto.


I am going to quote my previous statement:

The completion of colonial conquest of much of the world (see the Scramble for Africa), the devastation of World War I and World War II, and the alignment of both the United States and the Soviet Union with the principle of self-determination led to the abandonment of the right of conquest in formal international law. The 1928 Kellogg-Briand Pact, the post-1945 Nuremberg Trials, the UN Charter, and the UN role in decolonization saw the progressive dismantling of this principle. Simultaneously, the UN Charter's guarantee of the "territorial integrity" of member states effectively froze out claims against prior conquests from this process.

Everything up there, except full scale decolonization happened before 1967.

Syria right now is unpredictable as a bomb, as it could explode at any time.


It will most likely implode, given that its more apparent enemies are from within.

Do you think that they would hesitate to attack Israel? No. They wouldn't. They have plenty reason to. The could, in a single move, pretty much destroy 44 years of work to attempt to build up trust in that area.


With defectors reporting daily and its military fully engaged in suppressing a rebellion, do you think it is capable of attacking Israel?
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

The point of inserting Iran here is to show that such a closure of the straits would not jeopardise Israeli interests to the point of war.


But the expulsion of UN Peacekeeping troops and having placed thousands of Egyptian troops on the border would place Israel in a place of needing to declare war.

I am going to quote my previous statement:


I read it, and it doesn't actually quote international law. Those are just attempts at stopping conquest, but since UN Resolutions against this came after the 6 Day War, again, Israel's claims are valid.

It will most likely implode, given that its more apparent enemies are from within.


Most likely. However, if there is international involvement (which I suspect there will be), Syria has already threatened to plunge the region into war.

With defectors reporting daily and its military fully engaged in suppressing a rebellion, do you think it is capable of attacking Israel?


Any dictator with a missile could target Tel Aviv. So, yes, they are capable of attacking Israel.
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