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Forums → WEPR → Why Follow Religion?
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I have a question to all believers, what's your reason for sticking to your religion? (meaning why do you do it faithfuly, if you just do it cause your parents do it then I don't think you really believe)
- 272 Replies
They most definitely do, have you ever heard of their fancy baptizing of people who have already died? To keep them out of hell?
You're thinking of Mormons, they're the ones who baptize the dead. And they don't do it to keep people out of Hell, they do it to their friends and family members so that they can be Sealed and/or go to the Celestial kingdom.
And in case you don't know, Sealing is like "tying people together". Spouses, family members, and close friends can be Sealed to each other. Everyone who has been Sealed will be together in the afterlife as well. Mormons believe in three different kingdoms of heaven: a sort of "rison"(but with no torture) called the Telestial kingdom, where people who were wicked in their life go. People cannot be sent to the Telestial kingdom for their religious beliefs, only for their actions. The Terrestrial kingdom is for people who were good in their life but who were not Mormons. It's a glorious, beautiful place, but Mormons don't know much beyond that. Then there's the Celestial kingdom, where people who were both good in their lives and who were good Mormons get to go. It's no differrent from the Terrestrial kingdom except that people who live in the Celestial kingdom are literally living in the presence of the Lord, which is fine, because He is the Mormon Lord, so anyone else wouldn't care that they're missing it.
So basically your saying that some morons will overlook the fact that you are right because they don't like you?
Yes, but that doesn't make them morons. It makes them normal people. If you really want to change someone's mind, be polite. What if a telemarketer called you and started insulting you, would you buy the product they're peddling? Compared to, if a telemarketer called you and was polite, wouldn't you be more likely to buy their product?
No, he feels safe hiding under his bed and wearing a hat, he feels safe and protected by these.
Then sure, he can believe that.
Christianity (33%), Islam (21%), and various other major religions don't have a "hell" in those words, but you are still punished for not believing in the religion or acting they way they do by, using Hinduism (14%)as an example, being born into a lower cast or as a "lower life form". Even just going with the ones that believe in an actual hell, you still have 50% of the world believe in heaven or hell, which is definitely the majority when comparing it to other religions.
They are widespread because they make threats. A person is more likely to join a religion if they're scared that they'll go to hell otherwise, than if it's just for making them feel better.
a sort of "rison"(but with no torture) called the Telestial kingdom, where people who were wicked in their life go.
The amount of time served in the Telestial kingdom varies according on the crime, I think, but as soon as they have served their time and are penitent, they will be upgraded to the Terrestrial kingdom. Except for murderers, they will be banished to Outer Darkness, which is basically like...Purgatory.
Albert Einstein was a Jew.
I had to look that up a month ago for another thread. He was taught Judaism from a young age and held that belief for a long time, but stopped believing in Judaism in his later years.
Well considering my mom's side of the family are all Jehovah's Witnesses, I think I would know a bit. That's a lie.
Ill be sure to confirm this with some Johavah's witness in some point in the future.
To support what I said, here are some things from the BOM I have handy.
Nephi 14:3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell -- yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
And so it came to pass that that pretty much says they have hell. Not to mention numerous other hell mentions.
Albert Einstein was a Jew. Ben Franklin was a devout Christian. Issac Newton and the Wright bros were also Christian. I could continue if you want.
Maybe you are a bit dim. I specifically mentioned I was being as sarcastic as hell, changed my spelling and grammar, and really gave all indication that I wasn't being serious.
You're thinking of Mormons, they're the ones who baptize the dead. And they don't do it to keep people out of Hell, they do it to their friends and family members so that they can be Sealed and/or go to the Celestial kingdom.
Whatever. I often get the Mormons and the JW confused.
Your list still has it.
And in case you don't know, Sealing is like "tying people together". Spouses, family members, and close friends can be Sealed to each other. Everyone who has been Sealed will be together in the afterlife as well. Mormons believe in three different kingdoms of heaven: a sort of "rison"(but with no torture) called the Telestial kingdom, where people who were wicked in their life go.
Sounds like a hell to me.
Yes, but that doesn't make them morons. It makes them normal people. If you really want to change someone's mind, be polite. What if a telemarketer called you and started insulting you, would you buy the product they're peddling? Compared to, if a telemarketer called you and was polite, wouldn't you be more likely to buy their product?
Yes it does. Ignoring facts makes you a moron. If a telemarketer called, I would hang up, like I do with all telemarketers. The major difference is that I am trying to support the truth and facts, while they are attempting to convince me that I need a new new blender, which I don't.
Then sure, he can believe that.
Why? It is a completely insane belief.
They are widespread because they make threats. A person is more likely to join a religion if they're scared that they'll go to hell otherwise, than if it's just for making them feel better.
I thought you said that the threat was meaningless if they don't believe in hell? Or was that someone else?
Nephi 14:3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell -- yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
I don't know how you read it, but that verse says pretty definitively that churches/people who threaten others with Hell are the ones who deserve to go to Hell.
"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory."(Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)
Mormons don't believe in a fire-and-brimstone Hell, they believe that a person's pain for his or her own self via their conscience, or their greed for something greater(i.e. the Celestial kingdom) is sufficient punishment.
Why? It is a completely insane belief.
It's insane? So because it's different, it's obviously insane right? He can believe whatever he wants, whether he has proof for it or not. Hes not trying to convince you, and he doesn't affect you at all. Again, HE does not affect YOU at all with his belife. So he should definitly be allowed to like it and believe it. What he does with himself is up to him. He doesn't have a mental problem, so you shouldn't be worried.
Oh, one important caveat: Mormons believe that sons of perdition and murderers go to Outer Darkness. A son of perdition is considered the utmost sinner...it means that they do believe in God, they know the truth, but they still choose evil. The Outer Darkness is like Purgatory, not Hell, but souls who get thrown in there can never get out or be forgiven.
I don't know how you read it, but that verse says pretty definitively that churches/people who threaten others with Hell are the ones who deserve to go to Hell.
I see it as Joe Smith really hating Catholics.
(Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)
Mormons don't believe in a fire-and-brimstone Hell, they believe that a person's pain for his or her own self via their conscience, or their greed for something greater(i.e. the Celestial kingdom) is sufficient punishment.
If that is the case, then it would only be another case of people not believing in what their own book says.
How about these?
Moroni 8:14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity, for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
8:21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
Emphasis added. The "that which shal come to pass" and "wo"s where already there, for some reason. Joe Smith really hated Catholics.
It's insane? So because it's different, it's obviously insane right?
It is insane because it is a groundless thought that sounds exactly like the rantings of a madman. In case you haven't realized by this, I think all religions are insane, and they are hardly "different" or rare.
He can believe whatever he wants, whether he has proof for it or not.
But doing so is insane.
Hes not trying to convince you, and he doesn't affect you at all. Again, HE does not affect YOU at all with his belife
Really? Lets say that there is not only one guy, but millions. These millions of guys form groups that become very influential. Of course they don't want other people's minds to succumb to alien influence, so they start spreading the word. Then a president comes into power, promising "To free us from the alien oppression". Our money eventually gets "YOU CAN'T HAVE OUR BRAIN, ALIENS!" written on it to fight them off. Is it effecting me yet?
So he should definitly be allowed to like it and believe it
Allowed to, sure, but should he believe it?
He doesn't have a mental problem, so you shouldn't be worried.
How can you tell if it is a mental problem?
Oh, one important caveat: Mormons believe that sons of perdition and murderers go to Outer Darkness. A son of perdition is considered the utmost sinner...it means that they do believe in God, they know the truth, but they still choose evil. The Outer Darkness is like Purgatory, not Hell, but souls who get thrown in there can never get out or be forgiven.
I am starting to think you are making this up. My BOM has nothing about this in it.
But sardonic comments about their beliefs will still not help them in any way.
As I pointed out it can at times be useful, though a double edge sword that can backfire. Of course I'm not saying this is always the choice to make, or even the default one to make.
Common courtesy.
Common courtesy doesn't always necessitate respecting one's beliefs. Respect is not something that should just be given away.
I might think that a person's beliefs are completely ridiculous, but if they are a good person, then I would be more than happy to overlook whatever they believe in lieu of judging them by their actions and who they really are.
Sounds like you would be respecting the person rather than the belief.
So basically your saying that some morons will overlook the fact that you are right because they don't like you?
Yes that can happen. As I've pointed out the "some moron" might run out to and get the facts themselves in order to try and prove the person they see as an ******* wrong only to find they were right. Though they might just stick two fingers in their ears and two in your face and not listen as exampled in the scenario.
But doing so is insane.
So what?
I am starting to think you are making this up. My BOM has nothing about this in it.
You own a Book of Mormon?
I don't appreciate being called a liar. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants.
I see it as Joe Smith really hating Catholics.
Well, why wouldn't he? They persecuted people of other beliefs...in fact, Smith was killed by an angry mob for his religious teachings.
Moroni 8:14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity, for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
8:21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
The Mormon hell isn't the same thing as "burning fire and endless torment". I already explained that. They believe in torment at the hands of oneself. I know it's weird, but hell is defined differently by the LDS Church than by the Catholic Church. Take a gander at Doctrine and Covenants 19:4-12. Or just look at this web page.
Really? Lets say that there is not only one guy, but millions. These millions of guys form groups that become very influential. Of course they don't want other people's minds to succumb to alien influence, so they start spreading the word. Then a president comes into power, promising "To free us from the alien oppression". Our money eventually gets "YOU CAN'T HAVE OUR BRAIN, ALIENS!" written on it to fight them off. Is it effecting me yet?
So because I'm a catholic, there are the words "in gid we trust" on our dollar bills. Because I am a catholic. We're not bringing anyone else into this. Just me. How does my having religion affect you?
How can you tell if it is a mental problem?
A mental problem belonging to over 80% of humans?
So what?
So you shouldn't have it?
To be honest I can't remember what this conversation was about.
You own a Book of Mormon?
I don't appreciate being called a liar. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Mine is online, it is the same place I get my atheist bible and atheist quaran. Its an atheist BOM. Ill look more, if it makes you feel better.
Well, why wouldn't he? They persecuted people of other beliefs...in fact, Smith was killed by an angry mob for his religious teachings.
I don't know, but don't you think painting them as the church of Satan a little intense for someone who supposedly actually believes it?
Either way it is not relevant.
The Mormon hell isn't the same thing as "burning fire and endless torment". I already explained that. They believe in torment at the hands of oneself. I know it's weird, but hell is defined differently by the LDS Church than by the Catholic Church. Take a gander at Doctrine and Covenants 19:4-12. Or just look at this web page.
A hell is a hell is a hell is a hell. And the page isn't loading yet, I must have to many tabs open at the moment, I will finish this paragraph when it is done.
Mine is online, it is the same place I get my atheist bible and atheist quaran. Its an atheist BOM. Ill look more, if it makes you feel better.
The Doctrine and Covenants is not part of the Book of Mormon, but it's generally included in triple combinations. I think there's a passage search including it at lds.org. And do you really think that the Skeptic's Annotated Bible is the best place to look for something specific?
I don't know, but don't you think painting them as the church of Satan a little intense for someone who supposedly actually believes it?
They are the Church of Satan only because they persecute other people. Mormons take that pretty seriously. Here are the Mormon Articles of Faith, for example.
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paulâ"We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
To be honest I can't remember what this conversation was about.
You said something about how many religions believed in Hell, then said I was wrong when I listed the LDS Church as one of those that don't. I think.
A hell is a hell is a hell is a hell.
If you call an orange an apple, is it an apple, or is it an orange?
So because I'm a catholic, there are the words "in gid we trust" on our dollar bills.
Gid? You work for the alien! Now I must go get some tinfoil.
Just me. How does my having religion affect you?
A ton, considering this is a democracy, if you let any of your religion cloud your thought at any time.
And are you even Catholic? From what I remember, you don't believe in many of the overtly Catholic things, just the trinity....
A mental problem belonging to over 80% of humans?
Leaving only 20% sane.
Now the other thing with the hell will take some time, I'm going to sight a few sources.
Thread is locked!