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Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

There's a pretty old thought experiment that goes a little like this:

Suppose there's a transporter that can get you anywhere in the solar system within a matter of seconds. It does this by scanning every atom in your body, its wave signature, spin, and so on. It can also scan your brain to gather all your memories, thoughts, fears, experiences, etc.
Once the scan is complete, your body on Earth is destroyed and an exact copy is made at your desired destination. The question about whether or not you would undergo such a process often has to do with whether you believe in a soul - something that simply can't be 'captured' by the transporter.
For the longest time, I had no problem using such a device. (Of course, we're supposing here that the transporter works perfectly and there's no risk of anything going wrong).
The reason I wasn't opposed to the transporter is because it is also able to scan your thoughts. So, for example, if you were going to Mars and, as you stepped into the transporter you were thinking that you'd like some ice cream, your thought would not be interrupted when you arrive. It's phenomenologically seamless.

But here's a twist:

Suppose the transporter does everything it's supposed to do. It scans you, stores the information, etc. But instead of destroying your body, you just step out and go on about your day. Meanwhile this 'snapshot' of you is being stored. Years go by, you grow old and die - at which point the transporter exports the copy of you.
Clearly, then, this copy wouldn't be 'you' - which is at odds with how I've thought about this question. It seems like we're nothing but chemicals and organic substances in a particular arrangement. But if that's the case, then you would awaken after you die as this snapshot of yourself. This doesn't seem right at all.
To make it even weirder, suppose the transporter makes the copy of you right then and there without destroying the original body. Clearly here there wouldn't be 'two' of you!

So the question seems to come down to consciousness. Now, presumably your copy would have consciousness, but it wouldn't have *your* consciousness, would it? Other people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but it seems like there's something different going on inside the mind. So, what's going on?

  • 33 Replies
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

I'd never use such a device, at least not one that would destroy me, since, well, I'd be dead. There'd be a copy of me somewhere who would be persuaded to be me, although it isn't true.

If a copy was made when I grow old and die, I wouldn't 'wake up as the snapshot', since no matter how exact a copy it is of me, no matter how persuaded the copy would be of being me, it is and stays a copy. And I'd be and stay dead.

Now the rest of the world wouldn't mind. I wouldn't mind having copies of me after my death, I couldn't care less. This would make the information about me, my body, my consciousness, immortal in some way; the only flaw in this is that it's an immortality that never learns. Each time a copy dies, the information stored by that copy since it's creation dies with it. And there's no point in scanning and copying an old dude that's about to die the next second.

So such scanners definitely could be used in various ways, but I would never agree to have my original body destroyed.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

So such scanners definitely could be used in various ways, but I would never agree to have my original body destroyed.


I don't think I would either. I guess what I'm asking, though, is what is the difference between you and your copy? They are exactly the same, down to the last proton. But it's not you. Does that mean there's something 'spooky' going on here? Is this suddenly an argument for the existence of a soul?
xAyjAy
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xAyjAy
4,710 posts
Blacksmith

reminds me of the movie "the sixth day".

they would tell us if they had allready found a good way to succesfuly clone a human, right?

HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

I guess what I'm asking, though, is what is the difference between you and your copy?

Well, obvsiously none at the very moment of duplication, and from the first thoughts, the first impression on, the following experiences is what makes us different. I wouldn't treat my copy badly though, I might be the 'original' but I would not be better in any way except for my own pride. But since the other one will have his own pride too, treating the other one badly would be baseless.

Is this suddenly an argument for the existence of a soul?

Why should it? On the contrary, it would show that our very being, our conscience, consists of our physical body, that each physical entity can be a separate entity not lacking anything, even if it's 'just' a perfect clone.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Actually, it wouldn't be much different than to create a second ASIMO in addition to the current prototype. Two machines/humans having the same consciousness, the same base mechanics, going their own individual way in the world.

Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
1,606 posts
Nomad

Well I have thought of this same thing also, just not the twist part, but what I was thinking of doing would just to try to do the copying and everything but not destroy the body, then see if my consciensness is in the first body or the second and destroy the one which it is not in, but then I was thinking that the transporter would actualy WORK, but not in the way that you assume it to.

The reason Why I say that it would infact work is that it copies every memory up to you getting scanned and everything, so when your clone comes out he will be thinking "wow! the transporter actualy worked!" While I will still be on the same spot.

I think it would be useful if you wanted to start a colony somewhere so you could just mke copies and not lose anyone to that colony and instead just be filling up that one place.

Somewhat49
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Somewhat49
1,606 posts
Nomad

They are exactly the same, down to the last proton. But it's not you.

Why do you think that it isn't you? I think that it is you, just in a different spot at the same time, like a mirror image but this one reacts independently from you.
Is this suddenly an argument for the existence of a soul?

Please dont turn this into another religious thread.

So the question seems to come down to consciousness. Now, presumably your copy would have consciousness, but it wouldn't have *your* consciousness, would it? Other people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but it seems like there's something different going on inside the mind. So, what's going on?

Well like Hahiha said about the different experiences, the clone is imedietly going to start having a different mind then you because your thinking "im still right where I was" and he's thinking "now i'm over here but the original self is over there" so you already have differences in thought so your consciousness is pretty much doubled then changed right away so it is not longer a double.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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Jester

They are exactly the same, down to the last proton. But it's not you. Does that mean there's something 'spooky' going on here? Is this suddenly an argument for the existence of a soul?


I think of this like Portal. You are controlling the woman character (whose name I totally forgot) who is experimented on by GLaDoS the Lawful-Evil Antagonist. Her complete code is copied in a machine that is outside the world of the game (a trope). Every time she dies from some unfortunate incident or another, a new copy of her is refreshed and the copy of the woman is on her way. But we know this woman is a different person and that woman that fell in the goop is farther to the left on the chain of women who is no longer her. Of course, being the player, you are a separate entity actually controlling the woman so you have collective thoughts on the game up until the point that the woman died. In a real sense however, Body A died and so A's consciousness ceases to function, but Body B is new so it still works and continues the mission. In this sense, each body is new with only the same thoughts as the complete original woman that started the experiment.

The flaw with this is of course not knowing whether the machine collects the thoughts of the woman after she died to be contained in the new copy before returning to the experiment. This is played upon by the developers since you the player learned something of the stage after a death which the copy picked up on before entering and chances are this copy progressed farther.

The argument still remains, however, whether or not the copy retained the information about death and is essentially the original woman just with a new body. So premise one is: the brain is the central system in which all thoughts are processed, while the body brings forth the commands issued by the brain. Premise two: if the brain is still 100% contained after the rest of the shell dies and is brought into another body, we can conclude that the woman's thoughts will still function just with another body. If the brain can still retain the thoughts before the death, then the brain is still of the original. If not, then a copy of the original prevails--it just has the collective thoughts of the original.

This argument seems to be on level with the "what happens to you after you die?" thoughts, because no one except the owner's brain knows whether it continues or not.
dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

If a clone where to be made after you died then it would have your personality at the moment you where being scanned. And it should, lead a diiferent life, and be a somewhat different person, because it is living an entirly different life. It will meet different people, live with a different generation, ect... Because your enviornment really affects you a lot, and this clone has grown in a different enviornment it shoule be changed. As for the two at the same time, well, I would say they have the same mind and if think the same thoughts. But, as their lives differ so will they. If one went to college, and the other didn't they'd likly think muvh differently, one might have a tatto, one might develop a fear of heights, and they would grow different over time. Because their exprenices are different so are they. Experiences are a huge part of what makes a person.

So, I only think they're the same at the moment of clone conception. From then on, they'll only be further apart.

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Why do you think that it isn't you? I think that it is you, just in a different spot at the same time, like a mirror image but this one reacts independently from you.


Think about it in the 3 different scenarios:

1) The original body is destroyed and 'you' are transported.
2) The original body grows old and dies, then 'you' are transported.
3) The transport happens, but without the destruction of the original body.

With (1), it's pretty easy to picture. I can picture myself stepping into the transporter, thinking about wanting ice cream. I appear on Mars still thinking I want ice cream, and go on about my day. No problem, right?

With (2), the same things seems to be happening. My body is destroyed (it dies) and yet it doesn't seem like my consciousness would somehow be transferred into this new body. So why would it with (1)? There's some doubt.

With (3), my body and consciousness stay right where they are. It seems ridiculous to say that my consciousness has been transferred.

The conclusion of this, at least for me, is that there is something non-physical going on. Now, it could be an artifact of a physical construct (like the brain) but I'm having a hard time pinning down exactly what is going on here.

But more to the point. Say, in (3) you look at that other 'you' but clearly that isn't you! You're you! That's just an exact replica of you. Sure, the experiences of each will differ once the copy is made. But the problem is explaining why we might think that consciousness would transfer in (1) but not in (3). The conclusion to draw is that we're mistaken - our consciousness would not transfer in (1). But now we get into 'spooky' stuff.

Please dont turn this into another religious thread.


I would hope you would know better than to think I would try to do that. On the other hand, if the only reasonable explanation for the inconsistency between (1), (2), and (3) is something non-physical, then we shouldn't close our minds to that.

your thinking "im still right where I was" and he's thinking "now i'm over here but the original self is over there"


Let's change (3) a little, because I like were you're going. Let's say that you enter a chamber, are a bit disoriented, come out, and there's another you. You're thinking to yourself "Oh, cool. It's my clone." But then your clone says "Oh look, it worked. There's my clone."
Because you both had identical mental states, you would both think you're the original. And you know that your clone was created intact with all your memories up to and including the cloning process. How can you be sure you're actually the real you and haven't just popped into existence? There's no experiential difference!

*Note: I keep using the word 'clone' here, which is misleading. I should say twin or something like that. A clone is genetically identical. But this process produces something that is physically identical at even the molecular level. Hopefully this won't get too confusing.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

I'm still not being clear, sorry. Here's the question, in a nutshell:

What is it about consciousness that makes it stick to one and only one physical entity (i.e., the body or the brain)? Why couldn't we copy consciousness?

dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

What is it about consciousness that makes it stick to one and only one physical entity (i.e., the body or the brain)? Why couldn't we copy consciousness?


I think you can. If you did what you said, then that person would be an exact replica, and it would have that person's personailty, emotions, morals. But this won't be for long. As the clone encounters different expreiences, it will grow to be a different person.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

Not sure if this next post will be canon with my last post, but here goes:

What is it about consciousness that makes it stick to one and only one physical entity (i.e., the body or the brain)? Why couldn't we copy consciousness?


So we have an original man and a copy of the man that enters through the other end of the transporter while the original ceases. Let's not worry about the actual body. They both have the same brain and the collective memories derived from the original, because this is what the transporter is programmed to function, right?

Open up two tabs. While the two have the same functions and the same memories of the time before the transportation, the actual consciousness is different, because our minds are victims of circumstance. What happens between now and later in high, exponential variations determines our next thoughts. You are essentially copying two mindsets and letting it go after the transportation. So the next part of this story is that after the transportation, the body is expelled. So remove one tab of the link above. One tab is still going, but the tab you closed out, the original, ceases to function. These are two thought processes, programmed to function the same way, just in different circumstances. If that makes any lick of sense.
killersup10
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killersup10
2,739 posts
Blacksmith

i think if u were split into 2 people i think that you would switch between that person and you at different time intervales

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

I see what you guys are saying. It's hard for me to put into words what I'm thinking. Well, not just that - it's hard to type what I want to say. Maybe you guys should come over to the UK for some terrible beers and we can talk about this.
Or maybe I'm just thinking about this too hard, or too retardedly....

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