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Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

And a vague title, so you read the gurram OP.

So, let's discuss forum behaviour. In particular the behaviour around or lovely little den, but general forum behaviour or online behaviour should do well too. We can probably relate.
Lately there has been a large influx of people who, and I can only assume here, didn't think it was a good idea to read the rules when they got here, and now, several ranks later, they are doing their very best to get any and all topics closed because they can't type up seven words in response.
I don't know why, but I kinda assumed forums were for discussion, but there seem to be a general consensus that forums are for poll replies, just like the game comments are for word burps instead of, say, quick feedback or reviews, comments, suggestions and so forth.
Is this a thing we just ought to live with, because the internet degrade brains, or should we stand tall, and possibly wait in a dark alley for the people doing this, and beat them up?
Same goes for the deal of "let's reply unnecessarily to questions", not just with the 100+ replies to "How do I change my armatar" or something equally simple, but also the 50+ replies after someone made the first move and told the newbie to go do us all a favour and read the stickies.
I am well aware that the people pointing out the obvious and biting the mods in their well meaning way is doing it out of a good heart, but like the other example, it ends up being rather unnecessary, and spoonfeeding others information just ends up leaving them unable to learn it all themselves.

Anyway, if you fought through that little rant, congratulations. You have now come to the part where you give your opinion, point out the flaws in what I said, perhaps say some wise words or bring our attention towards other aspects of online behaviour and so forth and so forth.

And due to above, I bet this won't make five pages.

  • 71 Replies
Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

Why is it that the title tells nothing of the complex nature of the discussion taking place in the forum?

Because some users are morons. If the title said "Forum behaviour", there would be a bunch of "I don't get it!" and "I think that people shouldn't spam!!oneeleven", and I have no patience for that.
By having a vague title (which has been changed from "Super cool and awesome things" to mention kittens instead), people have to read the OP and the discussion to actually reply, otherwise they will end up looking like morons.

And, if I might add, putting your forum posts into paragraph form basically is saying you admit your forum post is ridiculously long and should instead be part of a book.

Nope, just making it easier to read. The issue with the "Don't wall of text" was mainly that his way of not making walls of text was to do the same, but doublespace each paragraph.

One with sophisticated taste might pass right over this forum without looking at it, but if they click the link, they would find they are right at home in the string of posts. Maybe the thread's title should be changed?

You came here, didn't you?
But what would you propose the title should be, now that we have at large avoided discussing the actual topic of this fine thread? "Forum behaviour"? "Online behaviour"? "What do you think about people on the internet"?
To be honest, one sophisticated but noncurious fellow missed is still better than a hundred short, useless replies gained.
It might be a negative outlook on the world, but it is my impression that if the title points out the exact topic of a thread, there will be a lot of people answering the title, and no the OP.
And yes, I have actually researched this before.

Some of the mentions on learning above reminded me of a theory I ended up tying to gaming: Pragmatism.
The general thought behind this learning theory is part the usual definition behind pragmatism, that you are working for the goal and not for the road there, and partly the philosophical definition, that you are using your experiences, the experiences of others and a good bunch of common sense and foresight to find out any possible consequences about something and thus finding the best and most painless way to a goal.
Would you think that this theory can be projected towards the way the learn skills on forums or the way we write things here?

Oh, and the wonders of refreshing.

Yeah why do people keep asking those questions? Don't the moderators always tell them to read the stickies?

Newbies.
Lazy newbies that don't care to see if someone answered it before.

And, may I ask, how else can you post something without putting it into paragraph form?

I am just wondering whether he thinks his own thread is too long and should be part of a book instead, since he did post two paragraphs himself.
CommanderPaladin
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CommanderPaladin
1,531 posts
Nomad

@nichodemus:

Only people with the social adequacy of a hobo with third stage syphilis come here, so don't be too harsh on the rest of us. I mean, if you really had good real life friends, would you spend that much time cooped up here?


This is not true. Many of the people who take part in forums such as this have plenty of real world friends. It is true that some who go to online communities are devoid of life or activity in the real world, but the majority are normal, well-adjusted humans. And while your colorful descriptor does indeed identify most of the troublemakers that attack in forums, overall you're insulting the rest of us.
Without telling too much, I call myself as an example. The number of people I count as friends in the real world is many times longer than my friends list here, and on top of that I spend the majority of my time either learning or working outside. That is hardly "...spend[ing] that much time cooped up here..."

Even a mock virtual society has to have the toffs on top and the rest of the insignificant masses of people below.


Another incorrect conclusion. The level of rank, respect, or popularity that people achieve here is based entirely on how active they are, how willing they are to learn and follow the rules, and how friendly they are to the other users. Everyone starts at the bottom, and everyone has the same level of opportunity to be active and increase their recognition.

Must be a fun place, these other forums. I've never been on them, and my sorry, pitiful internet existence has been limited to this hellish dictatorship of rules that is AG.


Gold King is pitiful. Duly noted.
AG is not a "hellish dictatorship of rules," as you put it. The system in place here is well-balanced, providing guidelines for users and punishments for the troublesome while not stifling intelligent dialogue and the general having of fun. I cite this thread and the "You're Banned" game thread respectively as examples.

"the more people in a group, the less the collective IQ will be".


Please, feel free to increase the collective IQ.


This concludes the semi-important stuff. Oddities now commence.
______________

@Devoidless
Make it look like your tried, as opposed to vomiting whatever ill-planned thoughts you have stored in your empty little heads all over my internets.


Wow... Angry much?

@Cenere (and others)

This thread, while on occasion deviating from its original course, has become rather fascination.
I would like to set forward a motion that the name be changed to reflect the real content, and that it be Stickied so that the dialogue can continue and evolve unimpeded.
Does anyone second the motion?

//End: my rant.
Returning to: your rant\\\\
nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Someone's Sarcasm meter has really broken down to a state of utter disrepair. Of course all people here real life friends. My point being that after a while, the realization of spending unbelievable amounts of time sinks in coupled with the fact that one realizes one has been an Internet addict. Of course you won't realize this since you've spent but a tiny fraction of time that me and a whole bunch of vets have. Did my hyperbolic sense o humor throw you off? Gosh my social skills have degenerated that badly? Alas.

As for the society ladder on AG, don't be daft. There is a hierarchy if you peer more carefully as you acknowledged, with some of the veta treating the newcomers like a Victorian prude treating his negro slaves; woth the newcomers gazing up in awe at the Top 5 whilst leaving behind short comments. Is it based on AP? Many newcomers who dont go on the Forums think so. Did I assert that earlier or believe it? I don't think ive mentioned that,
so second on the list of skills you might want to reassess is reading and
comprehension.

Now the next point. Yes Gold King is extremely sad. It reminds me daily of how much time I've devoted here, when I could have been studying or having a social life. You wont understand but the high rankers all do. Unless you're admitting that Gold Kings should be happy by virtue of having so much AP. Which contradicts your point that AP doesn't determine status.

What was the last point again.....ah yes the rules. Again my exaggeration must
have been too much for you to understand right? I'm sorry but that was how the peope on AG used to talk before we came to this sorry state of the Forum.

aknerd
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aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

A peevee is a lever tool used for manually moving things like big logs.


You are probably the first person outside my circle of fellow competive birlers, choppers, etc that know this. Though it is spelled "Peavey". Even still, I am impressed by your knowledge of historical Maine logging practices (Joseph Peavey being a Mainer).

Someone's Sarcasm meter has really broken down to a state of utter disrepair.

On AG, people have a tendency to not always get sarcasm. If you stay around here for longer, you will soon realize that people often post sarcastic comments, wait for someone to take it seriously, and then call that person out for having no sense of sarcasm. Its just a part of AG you will have to get used to.

But anyway (the following might be excessively whiney. You can skip it if you wish):

I greatly dislike the term "internet vet". People who refer to themselves as internet vets are just obnoxious. Its like referring to your circle of friends in high school as the "cool group", except I don't actually know anybody outside of cheesey movies who do that. Being a vet has nothing to do with AP, or being a good person, or being on here for an large amount of time. The only requirement to becoming a vet is being the type of person who calls yourself a vet, and being surrounded by people who don't object.

Listen, it's okay to be part of an internet community. That's why we all come here. It's understandable that you would want to be some sort of central figure in this community. But when you set up this whole "vets and newbs" thing, you are destroying any lasting potential this site has. Old users leave quicker than new users "become" old (whatever "becoming old" means in the context of the internet).

You get this community that consists mostly of lost, wandering young people who don't understand how to start conversation. But sprinkled throughout this community are the few surviving good ol' boys, how spend their time reminiscing and shooting at people who step on their lawn.

And that concludes the whiney portion of this post. Now, onwards to constructive feedback!

Everyone notice the abundance of locked thread here in the Tavern? There is a reason for that.


There are two reasons why there are so many locked threads:
1)People keep locking threads
2)People keep making threads that will get locked

Obviously, if either 1 or 2 wasn't happening, there would be no locked threads. For, now, I won't address 1, even though I do think there are problems in that area. Lets turn to 2.

Why do people keep making threads that keep getting locked? According to some recent posts on this thread, it is because people are either stupid or lazy. They simply don't want to make the effort. And to that I respond, are you serious? If you think this site is dominated by idiots and lazy people, why are you even here? I mean, what does that say about your intelligence, if you spend your time on the internet getting frustrated by idiots?

No, while there are certainly people here who aren't that bright, I think that the problem lies with those who know better. The people who actually HAVE read the stickies. The people who know how to get a conversation going on the internet. Most of the people who have responded so far on this thread, for example.

The reason why people keep making threads is because they want to talk about something. The majority of the threads on the first page of the tavern were created by relatively new people. In other words, the majority of active conversations were started by relatively new people. Why? Because they are really the only ones who are trying (This thread doesn't count)!

If you want there to be less spammy, boring threads, then make an exciting one. Make a thread so enticing that people would rather comment on it then make some random question thread. Spend less time deleting comments and more time creating conversations. I cannot remember the last time I saw a truly interesting, non whiney thread created in the tavern by a mod. There are plenty in the AMW, even some in the debate section.

If you guys are so much better than the "newbies" at creating conversation, then prove it. Be the change you want to see in the... tavern.
soccerdude2
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soccerdude2
1,673 posts
Shepherd

I greatly dislike the term "internet vet". People who refer to themselves as internet vets are just obnoxious. Its like referring to your circle of friends in high school as the "cool group", except I don't actually know anybody outside of cheesey movies who do that. Being a vet has nothing to do with AP, or being a good person, or being on here for an large amount of time. The only requirement to becoming a vet is being the type of person who calls yourself a vet, and being surrounded by people who don't object.


I actually think you need to have devoted a lot of time here to be thought of as a vet. Even if you call yourself a vet, I don't really think the general AG user would think anyone can be a "vet" if they haven't spent a lot of time on AG.

This is not true. Many of the people who take part in forums such as this have plenty of real world friends. It is true that some who go to online communities are devoid of life or activity in the real world, but the majority are normal, well-adjusted humans.


A lot of times I think users start out on this site from gaming and eventually get into the forums somehow. Then they start to like the forums more and more. Soon enough, they can't stop going on the forums. At least that's what happened to me

So I agree, it's not like everyone here is some lonely person whos only friends are their AG friends.

Listen, it's okay to be part of an internet community. That's why we all come here. It's understandable that you would want to be some sort of central figure in this community. But when you set up this whole "vets and newbs" thing, you are destroying any lasting potential this site has. Old users leave quicker than new users "become" old (whatever "becoming old" means in the context of the internet).


Also, going along with the vets and newbs, I think that sometimes there will be a newer user who will have insightful ideas about the topic they are in yet they won't be taken as seriously because they don't have as many posts or as much as a reputation as the more experienced users. I thin everyone should have a chance to participate in the forums and have equal reputation as long as they follow the rules. In many cases, they don't, but sometimes II'll see someone who does.

If you want there to be less spammy, boring threads, then make an exciting one. Make a thread so enticing that people would rather comment on it then make some random question thread. Spend less time deleting comments and more time creating conversations. I cannot remember the last time I saw a truly interesting, non whiney thread created in the tavern by a mod. There are plenty in the AMW, even some in the debate section.


Well this thread for one is exciting and fun for me to read over.
Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

But when you set up this whole "vets and newbs" thing, you are destroying any lasting potential this site has. Old users leave quicker than new users "become" old (whatever "becoming old" means in the context of the internet).

I tend to use "vet" as &quoterson who knows their way around the site and is respected for this", not necessarily "cool, awesome person" or "user that has been here a lot". Mainly just to refer to those people that will end up either being a jerk to newbies or get annoyed by them because of how newbies have a tendency to act.
The same way, newbie, when used by me, will partly refer to users that are new to the site and partly to people that are new to sites in general. Someone that has something to learn, and will make mistakes.

@most of rant/opinion: While I agree that the majority of the threads are made because someone has something to say or wonder about stuff, I really do think some people are too lazy (not dumb) to bother write lengthy replies to something, which is what bothers me personally. Not so much the "What is your eyecolour??" threads, though they tend to be constructed badly, but that is a matter of practice and confidence in self, but rather replies those threads will get. Sure, new users will fall into the trap, but when I see people who have been members here for more than a few months (which is like years in internet-time, it seems), it just starts getting extremely absurd and annoying, to the point where I do believe they are either lazy, they should know a lot better or they just don't care, in which case it probably shouldn't be me who had to leave.
Which also kinda respond to the "If you think this, why don't you just go" stuff: Most of us care of this site, for the forums and the users. Enough to make us at least slightly annoyed when we see someone breaking down the community "we have build", so to speak.
Especially if it is regular users, and not just new users that can be taught.

If you want there to be less spammy, boring threads, then make an exciting one.

This.
Also, the reason why I made this thread in the first place.

I think that sometimes there will be a newer user who will have insightful ideas about the topic they are in yet they won't be taken as seriously because they don't have as many posts or as much as a reputation as the more experienced users.

Which tend to be a social issue on forums in general. Because new users are alright, they just need to learn the ropes and all.
But it is hard to change the collective social hierarchy of a forum like that, just as it is hard to change the social hierarchy of a work place, a school or a family.
Since the internet is mainly build on textual action, the new users will have to prove themselves somehow before they are accepted, which is why lurking functions so very well. You get to see the community, what goes where, find information you might consider important, and when you make a post or a comment, you won't make mistakes and no one is going to jump at your throat for being new and useless.

Either way, while this thread is in no way supposed to be a stab at newbies, it does show a structural issue that might need to be taken care of at a later time: How to handle yourself around new users, how to make them "fit in" so to speak, not to try and make them conform to our opinions, but to give them a common base to stand on before they find their footing.
It is actually something most forums doesn't even think about, because they seem to believe there is no hierarchy on websites (even one of my teachers were of that opinion), or that stickied threads and a newcomer's section might be enough, when there seem to be plenty of reason to do something active to welcome new users and help them stand a chance against the old dogs that know how they like it.
I have seen examples of rules being sent by email to the new user, that they had to go through a test to make their account and so forth, but considering the current interactive and social media, why not take up a few of the habits of some mmorpgs, have designated guides that help out, beta-testers of users if you will, that can show them they good spots for what they are interested in, where to find answers to their questions and perhaps make them a bit more secure against the people that decide to attack at sight of a new'un.
Anyway, considering we here on AG don't even have a working help page, I can't say there is much hope for revolution on that front, and knowing humanity, there is doubtfully going to be a reform of behaviour either...

--

I cannot remember the last time I saw a truly interesting, non whiney thread created in the tavern by a mod.

*cough*
42maelstrom
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42maelstrom
123 posts
Nomad

Sure, new users will fall into the trap, but when I see people who have been members here for more than a few months (which is like years in internet-time, it seems),


Hey, you should also consider the fact that sometimes somebody will get an AG account, wreak some havoc around the forums, play a lot of games, become bored, and leave ArmorGames, just stop doing things on the site. But then months, years (centuries in internet time ;D) later they come back and notice that there actually is a thing about proper etiquette and behavior and ... *struggles to find the correct word* whatever that makes ArmorGamesâ"especially the Communityâ" what it is. They want to be as good as you "vets" and all of the usual newbie characteristics but they also know that there's a standard here that people expect you to pull off, or, expect you not to pull off, frankly.

I think that sometimes there will be a newer user who will have insightful ideas about the topic they are in yet they won't be taken as seriously because they don't have as many posts or as much as a reputation as the more experienced users.


Basically, yeah. But I don't really think that's much of a problem. If the newbie wants to be taken seriously they can earn that respect. If I were a real interactive person on AG rather than a once a week kind of guy then I wouldn't take newbies very seriously either. If the "newer user" wants to be respected that's something they can work on.

Bunnies? Can I request a new animal? My request is the llama and if you don't take my request than you've officially deemed me inferior and unworthy.

HA, just kidding, that was a newbie thing spastic thought I had. I really (maybe not really but I try to not really) don't give a carp on what the animal is. But before I go I'd like to say good luck to you guys with all of this forum business, but remember, don't set your level of interaction expectancy to be super great for everyone. Some people are just going to be crazy, uncooperative people. And... I'm sorry if this is a bad post. Because I am still a noob so I can't be perfect yet. And also, sorry if I don't reply to you guys much, I'll try to but I might be busy/not care. And... bye all.
Santi_
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Santi_
1,900 posts
Nomad

Wow, maelstrom, interesting rant. Well, when I first came to AG, I honestly didn't try to attempt to become like the, how you call it "vets", of AG. That is why you don't see me in any clans.

Basically, yeah. But I don't really think that's much of a problem. If the newbie wants to be taken seriously they can earn that respect. If I were a real interactive person on AG rather than a once a week kind of guy then I wouldn't take newbies very seriously either.

Well, you really don't have a basis to judge some one by their activity on the site, it may not be entirely their fault. With many people, it's school, work, personal issues, et cetera. It can also depend on how invested they are in the forums, and even on this site. If some one joined to actually just play games, then they may or may not interact with other users. Again, it all depends on their views.
For respect, well, anyone has some of my respect as long as they don't hate, troll, spam, or write idiotic responses. Which seems to be an abundance these days (not upon you, of course).

Yet, what really irritates me is when anyone takes my response, not the entirerty of it, just a sentence, out of context and judges me upon that. Gets a bit old after a while...
Graham
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Graham
8,051 posts
Nomad

Here I was, all ready to talk about those awesome bunnies.


If the newbie wants to be taken seriously they can earn that respect. If I were a real interactive person on AG rather than a once a week kind of guy then I wouldn't take newbies very seriously either. If the "newer user" wants to be respected that's something they can work on.


I remember Framl getting a well reception for joining mostly because of his ability to spell, navigate, and read.
Cenere
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Cenere
13,657 posts
Jester

They want to be as good as you "vets" and all of the usual newbie characteristics but they also know that there's a standard here that people expect you to pull off, or, expect you not to pull off, frankly.

Of course. As mentioned, it is just a personal annoyance of mine.
I am fully aware that few people, even if they have been members since forever and have a huge amount of AP, posts and a good reputation, might not actually have a full understanding of the rules. It's how things are, obviously, and talent actually does do something when it comes to being an internet celebrity. You can avoid a lot of trouble if you know how to act, where and around what people.
The same way, you can get into a lot of trouble lacking this knowledge.

If the "newer user" wants to be respected that's something they can work on.

As with anything, though
I remember Framl getting a well reception for joining mostly because of his ability to spell, navigate, and read.

can be correct in many cases. Considering your online identity is constructed mainly on how you "act" and present yourself, it is easy to be welcomed as a brother, as long as you have the right skills and understanding of the network you are walking into.
Just as you, again, can create enemies just as easily by doing the wrong things in the wrong way (or create suspicion if you are "too perfect", depending on the level of - paranoia in a community or the staff).

That is why you don't see me in any clans.

I don't understand clans, but that is something for another thread.

Well, you really don't have a basis to judge some one by their activity on the site, it may not be entirely their fault.[...]

Well, ideally you would not judge another person without having something to actually judge them fairly by. Sadly, this is not an ideal world, and jaded people will take "5000 comments, 3000 rates, 0 posts" as a proof of the user in question being a spammer, someone there only for the points, farming AP and so forth.
But I guess that is something that needs to be actively taught and spread, which does not seem realistic.
Rather, it would be a better move to at least go by the usual "innocent until banned by mod", at least to avoid trouble, defamation and other negative consequences.

really irritates me

Wow, you are such an aggressive person!!
Yes, I had to do it, no I should not be awake right now.
Santi_
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Santi_
1,900 posts
Nomad

*sigh*

Thank you. Thank you so very much for tha- ... you know, I'm not going to say anything for the sake of my own sanity, and mental being.

CommanderPaladin
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CommanderPaladin
1,531 posts
Nomad

Some quick thoughts:

Considering your online identity is constructed mainly on how you "act" and present yourself, it is easy to be welcomed as a brother, as long as you have the right skills and understanding of the network you are walking into.
Just as you, again, can create enemies just as easily by doing the wrong things in the wrong way (or create suspicion if you are "too perfect", depending on the level of - paranoia in a community or the staff).


This is also the way things work in the real world. Your actions, behaviors, and level of competence define your character, which in turn defines who you are. People will (usually) either accept or shun you based on your character, which is why it is important to develop good character traits starting at an early age.

Well, ideally you would not judge another person without having something to actually judge them fairly by. Sadly, this is not an ideal world, and jaded people will take "5000 comments, 3000 rates, 0 posts" as a proof of the user in question being a spammer, someone there only for the points, farming AP and so forth.
But I guess that is something that needs to be actively taught and spread, which does not seem realistic.
Rather, it would be a better move to at least go by the usual "innocent until banned by mod", at least to avoid trouble, defamation and other negative consequences.


This touches the other end of the spectrum regarding character and identity in a societal construct. While good character and appropriate behavior can to ingratiate you in a community, people on a whole tend to be suspicious to varying levels of whatever or whoever they cannot see and quantify for themselves. This has its origin in basic survival instinct. If you are talking to a person in the real world, you can generally see them and therefore gauge their intentions, motives, demeanor and so forth for yourself (or in phone conversations, listen to verbiage and tonal inflections), whereas when conversing/interacting with someone online, you can't see or listen to them. You have no clue as to who they are, what they are, or any of the other indicators that people subconsciously monitor when interacting with another person. While this is important for the protection of the user online, it is a two-edged sword: it also masks people with less than honorable intentions. The end result is that a person online can only be judged by the very small amount of information and trends defining their character that they willingly reveal or demonstrate through their online behavioral patterns, which leads both to undue suspicion and imprudent overall acceptance without knowing who or what you are accepting.
Unfortunately though, this is the best that the system will ever be. If you reveal enough information about yourself to assuage all fears, you forfeit your privacy and open yourself to identity theft and exploitation, and if you conceal all information, people become increasingly suspicious of you and ultimately reject you. On a large scale, either of these scenarios would lead to the downfall of the community.
44Flames
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44Flames
585 posts
Nomad

I don't know why, but I kinda assumed forums were for discussion, but there seem to be a general consensus that forums are for poll replies, just like the game comments are for word burps instead of, say, quick feedback or reviews, comments, suggestions and so forth.


I agree with you. This forum the tavern has a lot of spam in most of it's chats. But a good forum is the World, politics and religion one people there usually have good ideas and thought on various topics people discuss about. Some times it is the topics people choose. Like the one saying " If you had a wish what would you wish for". People there usually say a couple word answers.

Also the people that just go for rating games and comments can bug me alot. They aren't even contributing to the community but I guess it doesn't matter.
pickpocket
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pickpocket
5,952 posts
Shepherd

I see one flaw with what you said Cen, what does this have to do with bunnies?
other than that i agree to all of it. i just think that we have all been their. i have multiple times :P so it really does no one any good when you go "yeah this will be locked"(spam) or "im surprised this isnt locked yet" (still spam) or even "read the stickies noob!"(still spam). the main case i see this is with the not-so-new users, but from the point of view of use the still look pretty new. i think that these not-so-new guys get yelled at by some other obnoxious guy and since this is some of the first talk they see here, they think it is ok to do. so they go and proceed to bully the new guys, thus starting the system all over again. i find this very annoying and disappointing.

Devoidless
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Devoidless
3,675 posts
Jester

Rules are meant to be broken!


It's funny, I have a saying just like that but about fingers instead of rules. Oddly enough, it happens to specifically be your fingers. Funny how things happen like that.

It is mentalities just like the quoted which drag down the community. People think "lawlz, no1 cares bout teh rulez!" and then mucks up the entire place. Then they get banned because they prove to everyone that they never will be a productive member of society.
Also, saying that eventually the mod and admin team will eventually just "get tired" of doing our jobs here is sophistry, pure and simple. Will people come and go? Of course. Every job has new faces coming in and old ones moving on to better things.
Yet trying to say that, magically, every member of both teams will just throw their hands up in the air and proclaim to the heavens "I'm done with this!" is utterly ridiculous. We were all asked to become part of the team, and accepted because we love the site and want to do our best to make it all it can be. And if you consider that we mods do this on a pro bono shows that we have passion for what we do.
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