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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

So, barring the slightly generalizing and sexist title, this is a thread to discuss, academically of course, porn, and everything about the porn industry in relation to society, to the individual, yada yada. Yes, I know it's completely sexist for females who watch porn to call it a male thing, but heck.

Right, so what do you guys think about porn? Is it immoral? Does morality even play a part in this debate? Is it good, bad, or just a thing? Healthy, not healthy? Art, not art?

Carry on, I'll just be by the side watching, *voyeur* and occasionally jumping in for some action.

  • 70 Replies
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Gah. I should have known you were gonna get in here and start flaming, 314. Though the book was written by Christians, for Christians, it does still present scientific basis for some of its points. I tried to find my copy so I could quote it ver batim, but I seem to have misplaced it.


Ha! When can you ever use "Christian for Christian" and "Scientific" in the same paragraph?

Who does this book get it's information? Why would you wright a scientific book for only your religion? It is obvious that it is just some old man thinking to much about little boys.

Oh, yeah. I wasn't saying that porn is immoral or anything like that. I am very open minded when it comes to societal issues like this. I just know from research (that I have heard about) and personal experience that it isn't that great from a psychological standpoint.


"I don't have anything about it, I don't think it is amoral or anything. I just think that it makes you go insane."? You can't say that you don't have a problem with it, and then state that you have a problem with it. Your book is a junk source. It is impossible to bring up any legitimate sources for this, "Porn makes you kinky"? What is next? Video games making you violent? Water making you have cancer?

We live in a time where porn is free and widely available, even to young people. Since a ton of young people watch porn now, it is likely if you ask someone who enjoys the "Amoral" sex that you don't like if they watched porn when they where young, they would say yes. If you asked the biochemist if they watched porn when they where young, they would probably say yes. Therefor, porn makes you a biochemist?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

I just know from research (that I have heard about) and personal experience that it isn't that great from a psychological standpoint.

It all depends on who watches it at which age in what conditions (social, familial etc.). And this can be said about so many other things.

Who does this book get it's information? Why would you wright a scientific book for only your religion?

Don't dismiss it without having seen the actual research behind it; maybe it's interesting? Anyway, ATCaver said that there is a "scientific basis for some of it's points", not that it's a scientific book.
But I'm curious about those studies, too. What references does that book give in matter of papers/studies?
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Don't dismiss it without having seen the actual research behind it; maybe it's interesting? Anyway, ATCaver said that there is a "scientific basis for some of it's points", not that it's a scientific book.
But I'm curious about those studies, too. What references does that book give in matter of papers/studies?


I am not. I am saying that they are probably wrong. It is his duty, after all, to actually show us the information, not mine. In any case, I have been looking for the book online, and not wanting to spend ten dollars on one all I have found is comments on it. There is nothing other than his word even vaguely suggesting that it uses anything other than bible quotes for any of it's information.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Well, some of the references given in the (superficial and meagre) wiki article in the book make a certain bias in enforcing prude christian views shine through, that's true. Which makes the motives of the studies, or the choice of said studies by the author, questionable.

What I'd want to know is, is there any reason independent of the bible as to why many christians see porn as immoral?

partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

First and foremost, there is an inverse causal relationship between an increase in pornography and sex crimes. Thus, there is a-good- possibility that pornographic materials can act as a positive displacement activity for sexual aggression.


thats like saying:

video games are the cause for all the violence.

aka, BS. just like 90% of the rest of your posts.
Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

thats like saying:

video games are the cause for all the violence.


You realize that he was saying that an increase in pornography creates a decrease in sex crimes? Not only is your post uninformed, but completely wrong and insulting.

is there any reason independent of the bible as to why many christians see porn as immoral?


I'm not sure if you would find a valid answer there as it seems to me the vast majority if not all Christians would gain their morals from the bible. Personally I would point out that it could be a result of the societal view of sex being something that ought to be kept private and pornography tends to be anything but. It could also be that they view it as a form of prostitution, which also holds it's own bias.
partydevil
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partydevil
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Jester

You realize that he was saying that an increase in pornography creates a decrease in sex crimes?


well let's see...

there is an inverse causal relationship between an increase in pornography and sex crimes.


but w/e, i can't be botherd to read on when all the BS is smacking in my face. i rather have a BS free face. so i didn't read on, and will not.
Strop
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Strop
10,816 posts
Bard

I don't like wading through bs either. so if you're not going to contribute to the discussion nicely I suggest you take your leave by not posting useless messages.

I shouldn't have to say things like that in here!

goumas13
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goumas13
4,752 posts
Grand Duke

Inverse (or negative) relationship is a mathematical relationship in which one variable, for example y, decreases as another, say x, increases.
E.g.:
Y= Pornography
X=Sexual crimes

Ergo: Y (pornography) increases, X (sexual crimes) decreases.

Correlation research on the relationship between circulation of pornography and sex crimes, in general, finds no, or even an inverse, relationship, between circulation of pornography and sex crime rates. (Gert Martin Hald: Gender Differences in Pornography Consumption among Young Heterosexual Danish Adults)
Indeed, the data we report and review suggests that the thesis is myth and, if anything, there is an inverse causal relationship between an increase in pornography and sex crimes

Do you get it now? Comprende, ese? Capisci? Verstehst du mich?

In all likelihood: more pornography means less sex crimes.

Anyway, your obvious ignorance of the English language does not give you a free pass to trash-talk. If you don't understand what I am saying, just ask me or use a dictionary...
Also, do me a favor and lose the attitude.

sensanaty
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sensanaty
1,094 posts
Nomad

Ok, now for an actual response to this. I believe that viewing pornography at any age can be harmful to your sex life by giving you unrealistic images of what sex should be.


I double that. I first saw a porn video when I was about 14, my brother showed it to me. Now, the actual video isn't that bad. At all. I knew about sex when I was 9, thanks to the school program in Serbia.

But after watching a few videos, I got this image in my head of what sex actually looked like. And, the first time I had sex, I did it entirely wrong. I hurt my girlfriend, too.

Erotic photography, now this is art.


I hope you're not inclining on Playboy magazine photography. But, Playboy magazine has actual good topics at times.

Is it good, bad, or just a thing?


If you don't take it to seriously, it's just a thing. Otherwise it's bad.

Healthy, not healthy?


If you're asking whether the people in the pornos are healthy or not, then, very healthy. I happen to know a porn star, she has tests for various diseases ranging from colds to STD's every week. It's all a very strict control, no one does anything without going through a lot of tests.
But, for the viewer it may become a un-healthy habit. As Mage said, it can be unhealthy watching porn constantly. 'tis an addiction after all.

Porn is effing hilarious (terrible acting, naturally), and generally a fun pastime.


True that. Most of the time, the story goes from "Plumber coming to fix my broken tap" to "Hardcore ebony ....". You get the point.

Who does this book get it's information? Why would you wright a scientific book for only your religion? It is obvious that it is just some old man thinking to much about little boys.


Off-topic, but why don't they allow pastors and such to marry? It's obvious they really want to, why not let them?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

I hope you're not inclining on Playboy magazine photography. But, Playboy magazine has actual good topics at times.

Nah, not really. How about I correct my statement and say that non-commercial erotic photography can often be qualified as art?^^

Off-topic, but why don't they allow pastors and such to marry? It's obvious they really want to, why not let them?

I guess because they have to be kept away from 'impure thoughts'. Although doing so totally backfires, as comes to public attention time and again.
Kyouzou
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Kyouzou
5,061 posts
Jester

While I've never personally flipped through a Playboy, I don't think it would be too far off the mark to say that there could be artistic pictures within. It really all depends on the pose and the photographer.

she has tests for various diseases ranging from colds to STD's every week. It's all a very strict control, no one does anything without going through a lot of tests.


While I have no real inclination to believe any of this, I must agree, pornography regardless of it's "immorality" is an industry, one that is thriving and is often times under the spotlight. As a business, a pornographic studio can't afford to have rumors spreading about a lack of health screening. I'm also fairly positive that there is bound to be some form of regulation in an industry that can so easily start an epidemic.
ATCaver
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ATCaver
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Peasant

Off-topic, but why don't they allow pastors and such to marry? It's obvious they really want to, why not let them?


In Protestant denominations, it is encouraged for pastors to marry. What you are thinking of is Catholicism, in which priests have to take a vow of celibacy when they finish seminary. It is, as was said before, a failed attempt to keep priests from having "impure" thoughts, but it also supposed to keep their thoughts aligned on God, and not be worrying about their marriage. Now back on topic.
Deth666
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Deth666
653 posts
Nomad

Isn't morality subjective? So, it doesn't matter if one person or group believes something to be immoral.

"Certitude belongs exclusively to those who only own one encyclopedia." Robert Anton Wilson

Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

Isn't morality subjective? So, it doesn't matter if one person or group believes something to be immoral.
Irrelevant premise, but I'm not going to start on subjective morality. Rather, I'mma be on topic.

But first let me engage in a bit of narcissism: It is a shame I haven't been active here. I could tell you all I am insanely liberal, but without knowing me, it is difficult to appreciate the weight of the following:

Porn is bad. Yes, pornography, the favorite target of anti-moral-crusade moral crusaders. Commonly cited as a victimless crime, pro-pornographic sentiment is all but unavoidable in the 21st century.

Despite its philosophical importance, I'll spare you all the discussion about how history works and why becoming less conservative about something isn't automatically a good thing and get to qualifying my statement.

First, porn is not per se bad or morally wrong. Rather, the porn industry is, for lack of a more dramatic word, a blight upon society. The actual concept of taking videos of people having sex and displaying them to the public is not wrong, just the way in which it is implemented in our world s distasteful.

The porn industry in the United States increasingly utilizes the degradation and abuse of women as its primary asset for revenues. Porn has, and increasingly depicts women in painful or humiliating situations, or generally dominated by men and robbed of all voice and personality save a phony desire to bring carnal pleasure to their abusers.

Which is pretty bad,because, hey, people being treated horribly on a daily basis in order to fuel a multibillion dollar industry, or worse, people's sexual pleasure. That's some Bladerunner stuff if you read into the tone of the setting. But we aren't done:

The careful reader will note that I have chosen to focus on the abuse of women in the porn industry. This is not because men involved don't suffer, far from it, but rather because it is the norm for females to suffer. The gendering of the violence and cruelty in the porn industry is far more offensive than an equal exploitation system. The edge of sex-based discrimination offers porn its insidious edge, transforming it from mere cruelty for profit to institutionalized evil.

Now, you might say "But Xzeno, it's just porn. It's not like real people are being degraded or treated that way! This one stu-" but that's the thing, fun to read but poorly argued hypothetical, they are. While porn my hide its injustice behind the rhetoric of fantasy, it is reality for thousands of men and women. Every day, thousands of women are exposed to the degradation and abuse of the industry. And, in the world of pornography, they aren't abused for rough luck or their sins, they're abused for being women. And this abuse is glorified and sexualized. Made to be an object of lust, not indignation.

And many porn actors and actresses enter the porn industry, not because of a life-long desire to desensitize their countrymen to the evils of sexual abuse, but because they lack options. They need money to survive, and enter an industry designed to keep them trapped there, their suffering sold to millions.

"But hey, it's hard to blame the porn industry: they're just making money, right?" Yep. That's the tragedy of it all. It's not some evil plot by the porn industry, it's a reaction to the market. The market they helped create and continue to control, but a market all the same. The people committing these atrocities didn't make the world like this, we did. We purchased their videos, we viewed their websites, we put our money into their pockets so they could continue the trend towards the abuse and degradation of women. We created an atmosphere ready to embrace this kind of porn, we funded it, we said it was okay, and you know what? We can change it.

If no one supports this type of pornography, it won't continue to exist. Viewing it on a website for free is supporting it. Renting it on netflix is supporting it. Even viewing pornography you see as relatively abuse-free on websites that feature or facilitate abusive, degrading porn is a mode of monetary support.

The way I see it, there are four ways you can go with this:

You can ignore the evils of the porn industry, say they aren't real, cherry pick all your statistics, cook up whatever nirvana fallacy about one person not making a difference you want so you can not change what you do and live a guilt-free existence. This isn't very hard, and is a very common way people cope with truths they don't like. It's human nature.

Or you can be like Oreo and just not care. Acknowledge that you are directly contributing to the suffering of thousands of women whose only crime was being women, and say screw it, I do what I want. More brave than the first one, but I'd question your ethical code.

Or you can be like me and boycott the porn industry. Sure, it's hard to make a difference by yourself, but together, we really can create a world where pornography is ethical and equal. And even if we fail, you gain peace of mind: you can look back on it all, how we embraced this shameful excuse for entertainment and say "No, not me. I said no. I said I wouldn't support this, and I did my best. It wasn't much, but it was all I could do." Obviously this is the choice I am pushing for.

Option 4 is the one most of you think you're picking. Option 4 is that you're right and I'm wrong. Tough thing is, it'll be really tricky to tell if you're picking option 4 or option 1. I think it's 1 of course, because I think I'm right, but for the sake of completion, I've included option 4. Just please, don't try to take it. For your own sake. For the sake of porn. For the sake of all of us.
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