Just for the record, this thread should not be considered a duplicate. The closest to thing to this thread would be a thread over a month old. Besides, this one is more specific.
I have not been really active lately and so I decided to go ahead and make a thread, thata way it will keep me checking on it.
Anywho, this thread is about and only about Christian doctrine. It is open to all educated persons wanting to debate their doctrine. Those with stupid arguments, need not post a word. It is not limited to Christians; Athiests, and other religions are welcome too, as long as they keep to the subject.
You can only get to heaven by faith, and faith is dead [or non-existant] if no good deads are done. Therefore you can't really get to heaven without good deads that stem from your faith.
At least you are more reasonable. There really are people who say faith only is required for salvation, and good deeds are optional. Which is something I cannot understand, good deeds are, theoretically, part of being christian. Your standpoint I can understand.
Now for 'salvation by work alone', I see a few implications of that: - it would mean that being part of that religion is only a matter of faith (since good deeds can be done without) - adherance to that doctrine would be mostly out of conviction, since egoistic search for salvation by acccepting a faith doesn't work (not that other doctrines don't have convinced people, but percentually less I guess) - it would mean that also people of other or no faith can reach salvation; it's a much more tolerant point of view.
At least you are more reasonable. There really are people who say faith only is required for salvation, and good deeds are optional. Which is something I cannot understand, good deeds are, theoretically, part of being christian. Your standpoint I can understand.
Exactly! If anybody says this I would point them to James 2:14-17.
Sorry if it's a stupid question, but does catholic doctrine really teach 'salvation by work and baptism only'? Wouldn't it be more something in the line of 'salvation by work, baptism and faith'?
Uhm. Thank you, for bringing this up.
Since when were Catholics told to believe salvation by Work and Baptism alone?
Catholic, and believe in Salvation by faith as well, just not faith alone. The Salvation granted to through Baptism us the banishing of original sin - doesn't seal your long-term salvation.
I believe in the Bible as God's true and inspired Word.
1. How do you reconcile the multiple translations + contradictions/falsehoods in the text with this belief? 2. Do you have any proof that it is true and/or inspired by God? And the old 'the Bible says so' argument doesn't cut it
Well, if you have read the bible (and you may have), then you can see that it has prophecies that are fulfilled hundreds of years later that no man could know.
Prophecy: Psalms 22 'They apportion my garments among themselves, And upon my clothing they cast lots.' Fulfillment: John 19: 23, 24: Now when the soldiers had impaled Jesus, they took his outer garments and made four parts, for each soldier a part, and the inner garment. But the inner garment was without a seam, being woven from the top throughout its length. 24Â Therefore they said to one another: âLet us not tear it, but let us determine by lots over it whose it will be.â This was that the scripture might be fulfilled: âThey apportioned my outer garments among themselves, and upon my apparel they cast lots.â And so the soldiers really did these things Prophecy: Psalm 34 He is guarding all the bones of that one; Not one of them has been broke Fulfillment: John 19 But on coming to Jesus, as they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs Prophecy: Psalms 69 But for food they gave [me] a poisonous plant, And for my thirst they tried to make me drink vinegar Fulfillment: Matthew 27Â they gave him wine mixed with gall to drink; but, after tasting it, he refused to drink. Matthew 27 And immediately one of them ran and took a sponge and soaked it with sour wine and put it on a reed and went giving him a drink
Well, if you have read the bible (and you may have), then you can see that it has prophecies that are fulfilled hundreds of years later that no man could know.
Although i believe in God and my religion. It's always good to understand where another person is coming from. Although you make a valid argument for believers. A non-believer can respond by saying prove prophecies weren't written after the event? Or prove circumstances didn't work to make the prophecies appear to come through.
The post in response to yours is true - prophecies are vague and it's on faith that we believe them, but it is very understandable why a person wouldn't.
First of al in ever example here you are using the Bible to prove the Bible. This is like a work of fiction making a prophecy then later in the story it comes true. Not impressive. though it get's worse as the still fall prey to being incredibly vague and forced.
Prophecy: Psalms 22 'They apportion my garments among themselves, And upon my clothing they cast lots.'
That is very vague as to it being able to happen in many cases. Further more looking over the rest of the psalms it really doesn't match up with events described later on and the wording suggests an event taking place, not one that will take place. I will even use your favorite site as evidence of this. http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ps/chapter_022.htm
"1 My God, my God, why have you left me? [Why are you] far from saving me, [From] the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I keep calling by day, and you do not answer; And by night, and there is no silence on my part.
3 But you are holy, Inhabiting the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted; They trusted, and you kept providing them with escape.
5 To you they cried out, and they got away safe; In you they trusted, and they did not come to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not a man, A reproach to men and despicable to the people.
7 As for all those seeing me, they hold me in derision; They keep opening their mouths wide, they keep wagging [their] head:
8 âHe committed himself to Jehovah. Let Him provide him with escape! Let him deliver him, since he has taken delight in him!â
9 For you were the One drawing me forth from the belly, The One making me trust while upon the breasts of my mother.
10 Upon you I have been thrown from the womb; From the belly of my mother you have been my God.
11 Do not keep far off from me, because distress is nearby, Because there is no other helper.
12 Many young bulls have surrounded me; The powerful ones of Ba´shan themselves have got around me.
13 They have opened against me their mouth, As a lion tearing in pieces and roaring.
14 Like water I have been poured out, And all my bones have been separated from one another. My heart has become like wax; It has melted deep in my inward parts.
15 My power has dried up just like a fragment of earthenware, And my tongue is made to stick to my gums; And in the dust of death you are setting me.
16 For dogs have surrounded me; The assembly of evildoers themselves have enclosed me. Like a lion [they are at] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones. They themselves look, they gaze upon me.
18 They apportion my garments among themselves, And upon my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Jehovah, O do not keep far off. O you my strength, do make haste to my assistance.
20 Do deliver from the sword my soul, My only one from the very paw of the dog;
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, And from the horns of wild bulls you must answer [and save] me.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers; In the middle of the congregation I shall praise you.
23 YOU fearers of Jehovah, praise him! All YOU the seed of Jacob, glorify him! And be frightened at him, all YOU the seed of Israel.
24 For he has neither despised Nor loathed the affliction of the afflicted one; And he has not concealed his face from him, And when he cried to him for help he heard.
25 From you my praise will be in the large congregation; My vows I shall pay in front of those fearing him.
26 The meek ones will eat and be satisfied; Those seeking him will praise Jehovah. May YOUR hearts live forever.
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn back to Jehovah. And all the families of the nations will bow down before you.
28 For the kingship belongs to Jehovah, And he is dominating the nations.
29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and will bow down; Before him all those going down to the dust will bend down, And no one will ever preserve his own soul alive.
30 A seed itself will serve him; It will be declared concerning Jehovah to the generation.
31 They will come and tell of his righteousness To the people that is to be born, that he has done [this]."
You took one part of this over all poem and called it prophecy.
Prophecy: Psalm 34 He is guarding all the bones of that one; Not one of them has been broke Fulfillment: John 19 But on coming to Jesus, as they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs
You do the same thing as you did with the first prophecy here. Also the event of them about to break Jesus's legs i only taking place in John. The other gospels tell of a different event taking place. I used the 21st Century KJV. Here is the four Gospels from the point Jesus died to his resurrection. Mark 15:37-16:8 Matthew 27:50-28:8 Luke 23:46-24:12 John 19:30-20:13
Prophecy: Psalms 69 But for food they gave [me] a poisonous plant, And for my thirst they tried to make me drink vinegar Fulfillment: Matthew 27Ã they gave him wine mixed with gall to drink; but, after tasting it, he refused to drink. Matthew 27 And immediately one of them ran and took a sponge and soaked it with sour wine and put it on a reed and went giving him a drink
With this last one the fulfillment and the prophecy doesn't even appear to match up with each other.
The post in response to yours is true - prophecies are vague and it's on faith that we believe them, but it is very understandable why a person wouldn't.
If we have to just believe they are prophecies for them to be prophecies, then they aren't prophecies. It's just bias bs.
First of al in ever example here you are using the Bible to prove the Bible. This is like a work of fiction making a prophecy then later in the story it comes true. Not impressive. though it get's worse as the still fall prey to being incredibly vague and forced.
Mage, I hate to be a condescending ******, but there's no reason for you to post if you don't understand the point of the thread. That goes for you too, 314d1.
Anyway. I like to be cool and stuff and not conceptualize salvation as occurring through a predefined route--whether it be by works or faith or moral character. That seems like a heinous oversimplification--if the Christian God exists, he is omniscient and omnipotent. As a being that is both infinitely powerful (insomuch as logic allows him to be; yay Thomas Aquinas) and infinitely intelligent, it would make sense that his selection process would be a lot more in-depth and a lot more considerate than "insert belief on authority here".
Oh yeah, and Leviticus and Deuteronomy shouldn't be in the Bible because they suck and stuff. We don't need anything about stoning the gays, how to pillage a town, or how to sacrifice a bull without becoming unclean.
Mage, I hate to be a condescending ******, but there's no reason for you to post if you don't understand the point of the thread. That goes for you too, 314d1.
It's about discussing Christian doctrine right? How is pointing out that it's use a prophetic is not the case, even internally in these cases, not part of that discussion?
Well about the supposedly failed prophesies I can tell you one of them off the top of my head that did come true even though the site said otherwise, it said that Jesus wasn't pierced, he was when he was on the cross they pierced him through the side to make sure he was dead in oh and remember this was supposed to be from a christian point of view not an atheist that is trying to disprove the bible point of view
oh and remember this was supposed to be from a christian point of view not an atheist that is trying to disprove the bible point of view
Yeah, it's about discussing religious (not only christian) doctrine, not about proving anything, or yelling your beliefs; so you guys could stop with that 'I believe tah biblez is tru' or 'ropheceez are all tru!!'. It's not what the topic is about. This would also automatically avoid atheists getting at you for that, which would certainly please thisisnotanalt
Oh yeah, and Leviticus and Deuteronomy shouldn't be in the Bible because they suck and stuff. We don't need anything about stoning the gays, how to pillage a town, or how to sacrifice a bull without becoming unclean.
Oh please, don't forget about Numbers, that book alone would remove about 4 ounces from the total weight of the Old Testament.
Mage, I hate to be a condescending ******, but there's no reason for you to post if you don't understand the point of the thread. That goes for you too, 314d1.
Now, let's play nice and leave the sand box back in the other threads about "Heaven and Hell", etc, m'K? Anyone can post to the Christian Doctrine thread so long as they follow the OP's rule:
It is not limited to Christians; Athiests, and other religions are welcome too, as long as they keep to the subject.
.
In this case, as far as I've read, everyone is keeping to the subject.
It's about discussing Christian doctrine right? How is pointing out that it's use a prophetic is not the case, even internally in these cases, not part of that discussion?
With the crucifixion of Christ we have the Roman accounts not just Christian that agree that the body of Christ had no broken bones. This is significant because Roman soldiers would break the legs of the crucified to speed death. Another aspect that makes Christ's crucifixion unique was that criminals were not to be buried but left to hang until the birds picked the bones clean. The vinegar mixed with gall was a type of sedative of that era and Jesus refused it. The vinegar was probably made from sour wine but Roman history would have to prove that. The Romans kept excellent records and Flavious Josephus was the historian of 1st century AD records Pontius Pilate's sedition of Jews of Judea and Rome says this about Jesus Christ: [quote]3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,[9] those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day;[10] as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
There's another point about the "soldier piercing Jesus' side" that's significant too but I can't recall at this time what it is. I'll get back to you on that if you want me to.
Well about the supposedly failed prophesies I can tell you one of them off the top of my head that did come true even though the site said otherwise, it said that Jesus wasn't pierced, he was when he was on the cross they pierced him through the side to make sure he was dead in oh and remember this was supposed to be from a christian point of view not an atheist that is trying to disprove the bible point of view
Again this suffers from scriptural inconsistency. Again it's only John where you will find this even of Jesus being pierced in the side. In John's version it was from seeing water and blood coming out of Jesus that caused the solder to proclaim Jesus was the real thing. In the rest it was from Jesus crying out, though Matthew also includes that Jesus crying out resulted in an earthquake and zombies which seeing those events is what cause the solder to make such a declaration. (refer back to the four links of the four gospels I posted)
However we still do have an example of failed prophecy. This is in the second coming. About his returning Jesus goes through a number of things to look for, most of them being rather generic for a prophecy but he states "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Mark 13:30 NIV) Now it's important to note what is meant by the word generation. Many try to argue that generation means as it can mean the entire linage or the existing people. If Jesus was using generation to refer to the entire linage, thus saving this prophecy from failure and putting into an indefinite holding pattern, it would be a unique case of it's use in the gospels. In every other case the word generation refers to the current people living at that time. As exampled here in something Mary said "His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation." (Luke 1:50 NIV) Since the people Jesus spoke to are clearly long dead without these events taking place, it is a failed prophecy.
With the crucifixion of Christ we have the Roman accounts not just Christian that agree that the body of Christ had no broken bones.
I'm aware of no such accounts.
Another aspect that makes Christ's crucifixion unique was that criminals were not to be buried but left to hang until the birds picked the bones clean.
Well yes they would be buried, but not in a tomb. What makes Jesus's tomb even odder is the point that the stone covering his tomb could be rolled away. The tombstones used in Jesus's time were not round but rectangular. It wasn't until after 70 AD the use of round stones were commonly used. During this time only four tombs are known to have used round stone covering. All of which belonged to very wealthy people, blocking very elaborate tombs. What this does do however is help support the point that the gospels were written decades later and are not first hand accounts. As the writer makes reference to contemporary tombs structures and not of one's during the time of Jesus.
The Romans kept excellent records and Flavious Josephus was the historian of 1st century AD records Pontius Pilate's sedition of Jews of Judea and Rome says this about Jesus Christ:
Yes this is what makes no first hand accounts of the even or record of the crucifixion existing is strange. Further more Josephus is a poor example of extra-biblical accounts as it's very likely had been tampered with and again is not a first hand account.
