Just for the record, this thread should not be considered a duplicate. The closest to thing to this thread would be a thread over a month old. Besides, this one is more specific.
I have not been really active lately and so I decided to go ahead and make a thread, thata way it will keep me checking on it.
Anywho, this thread is about and only about Christian doctrine. It is open to all educated persons wanting to debate their doctrine. Those with stupid arguments, need not post a word. It is not limited to Christians; Athiests, and other religions are welcome too, as long as they keep to the subject.
It's about discussing Christian doctrine right? How is pointing out that it's use a prophetic is not the case, even internally in these cases, not part of that discussion?
"This thread is not a debate on whether or not the Bible is true on not."
If you're discussing from a Christian viewpoint and assuming that the Bible is true, assuming the prophecies as true is part of that. We are discusssing from a Christian viewpoint.
Oh please, don't forget about Numbers, that book alone would remove about 4 ounces from the total weight of the Old Testament.
That's true, too, lol. My problem with Leviticus and Deuteronomy is just how un-Christian they are. It's kinda disgusting, really.
Question from an atheist (and I hope I'm not mixing things up).. Is it generally a christian thing that by dieing on the cross, jesus sort of 'absolved' us from the original sin, or is it coming from specific denominations?
Because it has an implication on how christian people (should) consider non-christian people and whether they enter heaven or not. If you believe everyone since the crucification doesn't carry the original sin anymore, saying we are all sinners (as some street prophets/demonstrants say, or so it seems) becomes controversial at least. And if a non-believer doesn't 'carry' any serious sin, why seal the entrance to heaven for them?
On the other side, it would be comprehensible (not logical nor reasonable, but comprehensible) to let only believers into heaven under the condition that belief and repentance absolve the original sin. But then jesus died for what exactly?
That's true, too, lol. My problem with Leviticus and Deuteronomy is just how un-Christian they are. It's kinda disgusting, really.
It is important to see just what Jesus replaced so the history of Levitical law is necessary but tedious.
@ Mage
I'm sure that the Vatican trampled, tore apart and tongue-twisted almost every verse of the original texts leaving the mangled scriptures we read today.
What I mean by Roman accounts is when the Bible refers to quotes taken from the eye witnesses to key events in the life of Christ.
King James added the dramatic -eths to the language such as, "whither thou goest", Goeth, henceforth from this place", that wasn't even the way he talked during his era.
However, he employed the best transcribing monks to dig deep for the most accurate accounts from as many of the original texts as could be located.
Yes, scholars will continue to argue over the accuracy of what we read as Josephus' work that may also have been trampled by the Vatican way before King James' era.
The faith of the individual Spirit filled Christian discerns the truth for themselves, one on one. It doesn't come from just reading the Bible, hearing a sermon or, a Sunday school lesson or, from singing in the choir but it comes from the heart of the believer.
Then, comes the good works that just happen on a daily basis and here again one on one by seeing someone in need and helping them, for example. The true good works are done for Christ not for the individual doing the work. Not for a reward but because it simply needed to be done.
Jesus' sacrifice on the cross satisfies the Levicital Law requiring the blood of the pure first-born male lamb be offered as sacrifice for all sin to be forgiven. It's written in the singular form but it's meant to be taken in the plural form from Greek and Hebrew texts.
By the shedding of His blood, Christ placed, for the first time, Gentiles on an equal field with the children of Abraham. What all of this means is that all of us are still sinners, that fact will never change. Through Christ though, we are made acceptable as children of God and not just children of Abraham. The gates of Heaven are open to everyone who accepts this gift of life, through the death of Christ. We don't have to prove anything or pass a test or go through a 12 step program because, He calls us just as we are, right now.
It seems to me this has gotten slightly off track. My wife could answer these questions better but I will try my best.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
This means no one deserves to go to heaven. Left to our own devices we would all go to hell.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This is the faith that was spoken of previously. Not faith in the bible or faith that what we believe will get us to heaven. This is our faith in Christ. By accepting Christ as our Savior we become saved through His grace. The reason we cannot earn our way to heaven with works is because if all it took was to be "good" then His sacrifice would be in vain.
There are many differences between denominations that some times cause confusion. I had a pastor once tell me that we need to "quit majoring on minors and minoring on majors" . Have you accepted Christ as your savior is Major. Should women wear pants to church is Minor.
This is the faith that was spoken of previously. Not faith in the bible or faith that what we believe will get us to heaven. This is our faith in Christ. By accepting Christ as our Savior we become saved through His grace. The reason we cannot earn our way to heaven with works is because if all it took was to be "good" then His sacrifice would be in vain.
Why was his sacrifice necessary anyway? 1. Yawheh is omnipotent 2. Omnipotent means he can do anything 3. Yawheh can forgive without needing to kill his son 4. The sacrifice was unnecessary.
Correct?
There are many differences between denominations that some times cause confusion. I had a pastor once tell me that we need to "quit majoring on minors and minoring on majors" . Have you accepted Christ as your savior is Major. Should women wear pants to church is Minor.
All? All who? All humans? All beings? So Jesus and Yawheh deserve to go to hell to? Reading the OT this seems likely.
it does not mean that god deserves to go to hell, he created hell why would he go to it anyway, god isn't like the muslims think he is, the Muslims think that god(or as they say ala) is the creator of good and evil
it does not mean that god deserves to go to hell, he created hell why would he go to it anyway, god isn't like the muslims think he is, the Muslims think that god(or as they say ala) is the creator of good and evil
What does the believe of muslims change anyway? And, if I'm right, God did create everything right? Where does evil then come from? Created by the Devil? But the Devil is not God so he can't create anything right? Than who was it? Men?
This is the faith that was spoken of previously. Not faith in the bible or faith that what we believe will get us to heaven. This is our faith in Christ. By accepting Christ as our Savior we become saved through His grace. The reason we cannot earn our way to heaven with works is because if all it took was to be "good" then His sacrifice would be in vain.
I think we already covered in this thread that salvation by faith and without works, is a stupid thing. And completely arbitrary.
it does not mean that god deserves to go to hell, he created hell why would he go to it anyway, god isn't like the muslims think he is, the Muslims think that god(or as they say ala) is the creator of good and evil
Wait, he created hell but not evil?... 0.o I know it hurts your doctrine to concede that your god supposedly also created evil, but it's the case if he existed. He not only created good and evil, but tolerates evil. Or else he wouldn't have left earth in the hands of satan, right?
If you're discussing from a Christian viewpoint and assuming that the Bible is true, assuming the prophecies as true is part of that. We are discusssing from a Christian viewpoint.
Don't need a Christian viewpoint. One of the main points of that post was to point out how the Bible itself is no stating prophecy when we zoom out and look at the rest of what was there. I also pointed out how only one of the four gospels fit this "rophecy" while the others don't. That was also important to look at.
I'm sure that the Vatican trampled, tore apart and tongue-twisted almost every verse of the original texts leaving the mangled scriptures we read today.
Yes and it's even worse then even I was originally aware of. For instance pretty much the entire latter part of Mark is a 3rd century addition. (Sorry I don't remember where this begins, I hope to get into the more later when I have more time.) I do remember that the entire part of Jesus being resurrected was added to better conform to the other three Gospels that were written later on.
What I mean by Roman accounts is when the Bible refers to quotes taken from the eye witnesses to key events in the life of Christ.
That's a problem given when the Gospel was written. We couldn't possibly be getting eye witness accounts as the first of the four were written decades and likely a generation later. It would be like me writing about the civil war and I had nothing written from anyone who was there and I was including eyewitness quotes.
However, he employed the best transcribing monks to dig deep for the most accurate accounts from as many of the original texts as could be located.
Again all of this originally came from word of mouth that was written down decades later at best. So even these scribes had no first hand accounts to work with.
The faith of the individual Spirit filled Christian discerns the truth for themselves, one on one.
This is not how truth is discerned. A person can have their own belief, but a person does not get to have their own truth.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ~ Isaiah 45:7
There is also this part of the Bible where God sends an evil spirit.
Judges 9:22-23 (KJV) When Abimelech had reigned three years over Israel, Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
