But, the thing is, that's not the only example that has come to the fore in recent years and months. There's been SOPA, ACTA, CISPA and a variety of other pieces of legislation in different countries that seem to reflect a worrying trend - that being the control, filtering and censorship of the internet by the West. Now, as a collective, we've always been against the so-called 'Great Firewall of China' and the other forms of censoring that Eastern nations have used... yet now we seem to be employing them ourselves.
What are your views on such attempts to control the internet? Are they overt assassinations of citizens freedom or merely a tool to help save and protect the industries which are being brutally stolen from by pirates?
Yep, so I skipped your argument because Im concentrating on the real thread here.
Was that statement meant to be funny? Can you answer my question in a constructive way please.
Perhaps after you address everything else I said?
They are currently trying to block what exactly? Illegal downloads? Illegal uploads? I would assume they block nothing until some other illegal action is taken to online world.
No, not when you cant even address the threads OP in a meaningful way. You can treat it like Im hissy fitting, I just truly cannot be bothered going into the same old argument here on AG and I suspect we have crossed paths over piracy before.
This is NOT about piracy.
I only bring up a personal attack on you and your living situation because it greatly affects your view of the world and from your dismissal of the issue and the great fervour you rip into the piracy argument just tells me you have not looked into this properly. I feel like you are creating this total cop out front argument and its sidlining the really scary issue of corporations getting the power to decide humanitys moral fate! Past history teaches without any shadow of doubt that corporations are among the worst moral offenders out there and should certainly not be chosen as humanitys moral guide. Pick your bone with piracy another day, Im always up for a heated debate
No, not when you cant even address the threads OP in a meaningful way. You can treat it like Im hissy fitting, I just truly cannot be bothered going into the same old argument here on AG and I suspect we have crossed paths over piracy before.
Have we? I don't remember talking about piracy for a while.
This is NOT about piracy.
Then why are you treating it as if it is?
I only bring up a personal attack on you and your living situation because it greatly affects your view of the world and from your dismissal of the issue and the great fervour you rip into the piracy argument just tells me you have not looked into this properly.
Personal attack? You called me not poor. That isn't exactly a personal attack. Now you just said this is not about piracy, but then you talk about piracy more? How exactly am I not looking at this properly? Poor people really want their free entertainment, so it is OK to steal it from rich people?
I feel like you are creating this total cop out front argument and its sidlining the really scary issue of corporations getting the power to decide humanitys moral fate!
Corporations decide my moral fate?
1. Stealing is wrong. This truth is held to be self evident. 2. Piracy is stealing. 3. By the law of transition, piracy=stealing=wrong.
Do corporations decide human nature now?
Past history
As apposed to future history?
Past history teaches without any shadow of doubt that corporations are among the worst moral offenders out there and should certainly not be chosen as humanitys moral guide.
I don't see them as moral guidelines for humanity or even America. Why would you assume that it would? Corporations are just groups of people, saying that they have been the worst moral offenders is like saying countires have been the worst moral offenders, the people in them are the ones committing the acts.
Just to wade in here for a second, and not at all to derail the thread (although the question of just how on-topic it was remains to be answered), can one truly describe piracy as stealing? Surely stealing implies the theft of the product and the idea that it is no longer possessed by the original owner. Piracy is more along the lines of making a copy of the product while leaving the original in tact and in the hands of the owners.
Just to wade in here for a second, and not at all to derail the thread (although the question of just how on-topic it was remains to be answered)
Actually, AnaLoGMunKy was just whining about just that.
can one truly describe piracy as stealing? Surely stealing implies the theft of the product and the idea that it is no longer possessed by the original owner. Piracy is more along the lines of making a copy of the product while leaving the original in tact and in the hands of the owners.
You guys have no concept of what the word "Stealing" means. For example, you could use stealing in the sentence "Russia stole America's nuclear secrets", and despite historical inaccuracy it would be proper use of the word. Did America lose it's military secrets? No. Russia just gained them, but it would be called stealing still.
Even if, somehow, they are not stealing the item they want, they are still stealing money that would have gone to the creator of the media piece had they watched it legally. Or if they don't, then why wouldn't everyone pirate everything?
It may or may not have been with you, its been a while since I was really active in WEPR
[quote]This is NOT about piracy.
Then why are you treating it as if it is?[/quote]
You entered the debate with arguments on piracy and it was the main point of your posts from the start. Here is the first line of your post.
"Stealing" things that can not be legally bought in your country is morally right?
I just feel that the importance of discussing the issue of censorship goes above the moral issues of piracy.
Corporations are just groups of people, saying that they have been the worst moral offenders is like saying countires have been the worst moral offenders, the people in them are the ones committing the acts.
Right, but your not digging into the real issue here. Its obviously the people within corporations that have made these morally unsound decisions over and over again.
Its corporations that are right now behind this censorship.
Im failing to see how you dont get the correlation in what I was talking about.
Corporations = Morally unsound (mentioning that there is a plethora of history to back this up)
Who should guide humanity in these morally uncertain times = not corporations.
Did you even read the links I posted? One of the studies highlighted there had shown a link between piracy and an actual INCREASE in profits for the entertainment industry - not just some anecdotal "excuse" to rationalize piracy.
It may or may not have been with you, its been a while since I was really active in WEPR
.....
You entered the debate with arguments on piracy and it was the main point of your posts from the start. Here is the first line of your post.
Responding to what someone said about piracy. Before me. On the first page.
I just feel that the importance of discussing the issue of censorship goes above the moral issues of piracy.
Then bring up points about censorship, rather than piracy! Your the one who keeps bringing up piracy.
Right, but your not digging into the real issue here. Its obviously the people within corporations that have made these morally unsound decisions over and over again.
And governments have committed genocide of their own citizens, other people's citizens, and random people. Really, you can't put all "Corporations" in a group the same way you can't put all governments in one group.
Its corporations that are right now behind this censorship.
Is it? I could have sworn that it was the U.S government.
Im failing to see how you dont get the correlation in what I was talking about.
Im getting it. It is making a blanket statement trying to cover everything, which is never a good idea.
Corporations = Morally unsound (mentioning that there is a plethora of history to back this up)
Government=morally unsound. (Do I have to list examples? Nazi Germany. Stalin's Russia. Moe Zedong. Pol Pot. It literally goes on for hours)
What does that have to do with censorship? Blanket statements are fun.
Who should guide humanity in these morally uncertain times = not corporations.
What morally uncertain times? Why would we need a guide?
Did you even read the links I posted? One of the studies highlighted there had shown a link between piracy and an actual INCREASE in profits for the entertainment industry - not just some anecdotal "excuse" to rationalize piracy.
Did you even read the links I posted? One of the studies highlighted there had shown a link between piracy and an actual INCREASE in profits for the entertainment industry - not just some anecdotal "excuse" to rationalize piracy.
Never mind. Found it. The links are hardly reliable. The first leads to an obviously biased sight. I looked at the "study" it says it is based on, and the link leads to a missing page in some obscure language. I didn't bother reading it, considering the report it is allegedly based on doesn't exist.
The second actually has the proper source linked, but the source is in German and google translator is giving me a headache with it's misuse of the language. The actual study is interesting:
The released portion is invested instead of canned music or film to concerts, movies and merchandising.
This development mainly affects the large foreign production companies. You have to adapt to the changing consumer behavior. Fears that the development could have an adverse impact on the national cultural production remain unfounded because of the shifts outlined. For these reasons, the Federal Council concludes that no legislative action is needed.
A Google translated version if it. So it DOES have an effect, just not on any Swiss companies. Can you name a major company in gaming or other media? I can only think of American and Japanese countries off the top of my head, but no Swiss countries. So your study actually shows that it DOES have an effect. The biased sight is just taking it out of context and using it to it's advantage.
Yeah, thats exactly what Im feeling right now. Debating with you is not a learning experience dude, it feels like Im debating semantics over and over again.
Yeah, thats exactly what Im feeling right now. Debating with you is not a learning experience dude, it feels like Im debating semantics over and over again.
Same with you, except you literally said nothing for the last five posts.
except you literally said nothing for the last five posts.
Except really clear comments like this
You entered the debate with arguments on piracy and it was the main point of your posts from the start. Here is the first line of your post.
[quote]"Stealing" things that can not be legally bought in your country is morally right?
[/quote]
I asked a fairly straightforward open ended question to promote some kind of input AWAY from "iracy is morally wrong" by asking :
What will they censor next ?
To which you reply
First they start off censoring illegal things, what is next? Child porn? I will probably have to go with child porn. Am I right?
Thats not just a poor argument its insulting.
So I say...
Can you answer my question in a constructive way please.
Now here is pretty much every time you liken anyones argument to piracy and stealing is morally wrong. You ready, because your quote list is gonna be a long one here...
-----------------------------------------------
"Stealing" things that can not be legally bought in your country is morally right? So logically, stealing marijuana is morally right, since it is illegal to buy in most countries?
So if you go into a bar, and order a drink, but the bartender refuses, it is then OK to steal a drink for yourself?
Or they hate money, and if that is correct then you would be doing them a favor by stealing their drink.
It is good to know what you do. And what about everyone else? It is hardly a legal argument to say "Well I do this, so everyone must". And what about all the things that you try and don't like? You just walk away, laughing? Last I checked you still had to pay for something if you didn't like it.
So by this logic, it is OK to sneak into a movie theater, steal popcorn, and then come in and watch it again if you liked the movie.
You don't go into a restaurant, steal a steak, and then only pay if you like it
So I can go over to Olive Garden, break into the kitchen and steal food, and then come back if I like it?
Does it harm someone else? If it doesn't, then it is of course OK. If it does, than that means it isn't OK in any situation. Not "Oh. It is OK. I am entitled to only pay for things that I like!"
Your starting to sound like a Christian. "Here, I had a personal experience with piracy. And everyone else has the same experience. There is no one who just pirates things. They are not true Scotsmen."
If you buy something, which you would have to do, you still have to buy it. You can ask for a refund, depending on what the item is, you can't just take it and pay for it if you feel like it.
But if you break into a movie theater, they have not actually lost anything, did they? They just played the movie for free. Without them knowing it.
If they wanted to give you a trial, they would have. You can't just take one yourself. Or is paying optional now?
Is Walmart rich? Yes. Therefore, I can take a flat screen, an Xbox, a chair, and shoes. If I like it, I will pay for it. If I don,t I won't. No one gets harmed since they are rich, right?
So logically, it is OK to rob Bill Gates since he is rich? Of course rich people are OK to rob. Since if they where poor, it would be horrible to rob them?
That in no way suggests that piracy is not harmful, the same way a lowering would not suggest that it is harmful.
Since it is OK to rob greedy people?
You are saying that piracy doesn't lose them money.
I am confused. First you say they are not losing any money, then you turn around and call them rich and greedy who are just trying to make money. So are they losing money or not?
If they are greedy and don't care, then they shouldn't care about your harmless actions. Right?
But if you are losing them money, then it is morally wrong anyway, and if you are not, then they don't care. So why do they care if you are not losing them money?
I know personally that if I go around doing my job and don't get payed for it, I would be pretty annoyed. Wouldn't you?
So breaking in to see a movie theater or show then. Is that more accurate?
If the stall across from you starts stealing burgers (Which you only put money into producing) and giving them away from free, how would that effect your burger stand?
And how do you know that? I assume that you went around and did a servery? "Hello. I would like to ask you about your illegal actions."
Why should you get a free demo? It is not like you can just go to an ice cream store and take free samples randomly, they have to offer, or is is stealing.
So an increase in Walmart's money means that stealing from it did nothing?
If I where to bring out a chart that said they where losing money, would you see it and say piracy was losing them money? I would assume not. So why would the opposite be true?
Just because everyone else does, and you would like a free sample, doesn't mean you can take one yourself. If one of the furniture stores doesn't offer free trials, it does not mean you can steal furniture and give it back if you don't like it.
That is how capitalism works, comrade. Are you saying that it is OK to steal luxuries if you are poor?
If your actions take something that someone else owns away from them, it is stealing. If the companies are losing money on piracy, it is stealing.
Poor people really want their free entertainment, so it is OK to steal it from rich people?
1. Stealing is wrong. This truth is held to be self evident. 2. Piracy is stealing. 3. By the law of transition, piracy=stealing=wrong.
For example, you could use stealing in the sentence "Russia stole America's nuclear secrets", and despite historical inaccuracy it would be proper use of the word. Did America lose it's military secrets? No. Russia just gained them, but it would be called stealing still.
Even if, somehow, they are not stealing the item they want, they are still stealing money that would have gone to the creator of the media piece had they watched it legally. Or if they don't, then why wouldn't everyone pirate everything?
You guys have no concept of what the word "Stealing" means.
Actually 314d1, after your tireless rambling on the subject, as shown above,I think we really do. Thanks.
Responding to what someone said about piracy. Before me. On the first page.
I see, so your not basically structuring the whole of your argument on censorship by saying piracy is wrong? Well look at that, yes you are!
Then bring up points about censorship, rather than piracy! Your the one who keeps bringing up piracy.
Yeah... yeah, nice. Contradicting yourself here. AND accusing me of doing the exact thing YOU have been doing... I see your logic there.
WHY do you consistantly insist on likening this to stealing when what we are talking about is CENSORSHIP!
Actually its getting kinda embarrassing now, isnt it? I thought we had already delt with this.
It sure started out that way, didn't it? But as I said earlier, you have changed this thread from "Censorship is bad" (A true statement) to "Piracy is OK".
Show me where I say "Piracy is OK". You cant, because I didnt.
Could you please inform me on what my actual views are, on any subject?
Have I done enough? If you dont feel this way (which I know you dont e.g.
"Censorship is bad" (A true statement)
)
Same with you, except you literally said nothing for the last five posts.
Really. Yes, I think we can see that now. Whereas YOU have given paragraph after paragraph of useful info such as "stealing is bad" and stealing food is bad" and "stealing money is bad" and "stealing, its bad, mkay"
I asked a fairly straightforward open ended question to promote some kind of input AWAY from "iracy is morally wrong" by asking :
No you didn't, you simply quoted what I said first. Without replying to it.
Thats not just a poor argument its insulting.
And you didn't read any of my post before that, or after that. And you did not respond to it. So why should I put extra effort into something you will just ignore?
Now here is pretty much every time you liken anyones argument to piracy and stealing is morally wrong. You ready, because your quote list is gonna be a long one here...
It has been four pages, it is likely to get a ton of quotes.
Actually 314d1, after your tireless rambling on the subject, as shown above,I think we really do. Thanks.
So you are learning!
I see, so your not basically structuring the whole of your argument on censorship by saying piracy is wrong? Well look at that, yes you are!
Wait, when did we start talking about censorship?
Yeah... yeah, nice. Contradicting yourself here. AND accusing me of doing the exact thing YOU have been doing... I see your logic there.
Good. If you see my logic here, we can move on.
Show me where I say "Piracy is OK". You cant, because I didnt.
"It really IS impossible to prove and in fact becomes easier to prove that the opposite is true. I download things. I try them. If I like, I buy them.
I could spit out a list of games as long as my arm that I tried and bought and an even longer list of games that I thought were guff and not worth my money. This is not inividual to me. All my friends do the same. I have games they didnt buy and vice versa, its called trying the product out to see what its REALLY like, not judge it by a tailored advert that most of the time shows NOTHING of the gameplay. Also, I met a parent today who downloaded the new avengers movie for the kids to watch. This very same night they are seeing it in the cinema. They went to the cinema regardless of the download. I bought my games BECAUSE of the download. I guarantee I would not have bought it otherwise."
As in "Piracy is OK". "When I do it".
Have I done enough? If you dont feel this way (which I know you dont e.g.
So...I believe censorship is bad...but I don't? Your could make a religion on this stuff, with all the since your making.
Really. Yes, I think we can see that now. Whereas YOU have given paragraph after paragraph of useful info such as "stealing is bad" and stealing food is bad" and "stealing money is bad" and "stealing, its bad, mkay"
As you complain about me doing that, and then ask me random questions about random things.
You spend a whole bunch of con-descending posts telling others that stealing is bad, then you pull that naff bit of evidence out as if that proves I think stealing is good. Man your really strugglin. Not just in here but other threads too.
Im trying to be nice but I also cant help being sarcastic to someone who is acting like such a ******bag (I love that word)
You want MY personal views on piracy? Your a dog with a bone and you just wont let go. Well here is your bone doggie!
I love games and never have the money to buy all the ones I would want to try. This way I get to try this forbidden fruit, like a real regular adam, Got my cake AND eating it. I dont feel guilty because I really do spend money on the games that I actually play all the time. Is that morally logical? No. What were you expecting? Get off your high horse. I never rip games off smaller companies like Kingdom Rush and Gemcraft Dev's and I support them with a meger amount of money for premium content. My moral compass is about average for a morally sound human being. Yours is verging on poking straight up your own behind. Or is that a complete act. I cant decide and the more it carries on the less I care and the less I like you for being either Devils Advocate all the time or for literally being an arrogant git!
So what will they censor next?
Good question 314d1. I am worried that forums of a political nature will become censored i.e. BNP, KKK, Church of Nutters etc.
Should we censor the KKK websites. SHould we censor the Combat 19 Nazi dudes websites? (or whatever their numbers were)
I dont think we should. If its not there for all to access then how do we challenge these racist groups. They will just hide themselves better in future and carry on regardless.
You spend a whole bunch of con-descending posts telling others that stealing is bad, then you pull that naff bit of evidence out as if that proves I think stealing is good.
It does say that you think piracy is OK, and if piracy is stealing then you think stealing is OK.
Im trying to be nice but I also cant help being sarcastic to someone who is acting like such a ******bag (I love that word)
Oh, such lovely language. I see the years of intense debate on these forums has left you the aperture of logical arguments and patience.
You want MY personal views on piracy? Your a dog with a bone and you just wont let go. Well here is your bone doggie!
Wof.
I love games and never have the money to buy all the ones I would want to try. This way I get to try this forbidden fruit, like a real regular adam, Got my cake AND eating it. I dont feel guilty because I really do spend money on the games that I actually play all the time
So you steal games, and feel don't guilty about it? Not feeling guilt is the sign of a hardened criminal, which must mean that it is stealing.
s that morally logical? No. What were you expecting? Get off your high horse.
I was expecting everyone's morals to be as logical as mine?
And I thought I was a dog. Am I a dog riding a horse?
I never rip games off smaller companies like Kingdom Rush and Gemcraft Dev's and I support them with a meger amount of money for premium content.
Congratulations! You are just like an everyday Robinhood! Stealing from the rich and giving to yourself. That is how Robinhood works, right? He stole free beer, but only from large com...guilds?
And aren't Gemcraft and Kingdom Rush free flash games anyway? What moron pirate would steal free stuff?
My moral compass is about average for a morally sound human being
Is that not what every criminal tells themselves? Your crimes are small, everyone commits them? Who are you trying to convince? Me or...Yourself! Or your mother? Or you, but as a child?
Yours is verging on poking straight up your own behind. Or is that a complete act. I cant decide and the more it carries on the less I care and the less I like you for being either Devils Advocate all the time or for literally being an arrogant git!
You can't tell any more?
Good question 314d1. I am worried that forums of a political nature will become censored i.e. BNP, KKK, Church of Nutters etc.
