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Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

I was inspired to make this thread with the recent (read: announced about an hour ago) British High Court decision to force ISPs to block The Pirate Bay in the UK.

But, the thing is, that's not the only example that has come to the fore in recent years and months. There's been SOPA, ACTA, CISPA and a variety of other pieces of legislation in different countries that seem to reflect a worrying trend - that being the control, filtering and censorship of the internet by the West. Now, as a collective, we've always been against the so-called 'Great Firewall of China' and the other forms of censoring that Eastern nations have used... yet now we seem to be employing them ourselves.

What are your views on such attempts to control the internet?
Are they overt assassinations of citizens freedom or merely a tool to help save and protect the industries which are being brutally stolen from by pirates?

  • 88 Replies
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Ironic how you just went around yelling "I BEAT YOU! YES, I TOTALLY WON THAT ARGUMENT!"?


Or I actually told you to stop being so belligerent and yelling about how much you think its all about winning an argument. Is that so difficult for you to acccept? That you have been stomping around the last 8 pages ranting your darn head off!

Yes, that area "In the past", the one that you have not yet brought up any examples of.


If you need me to cite exact occasions then you must really keep your head in the sand!

If it loses them money, then why should it be aloud?


We already went over this, it doesnt lose them money and really, who the hell cares when they earn so much. Small companies are rarely affected by internet piracy and the pirate bay was the least of the worlds concerns.

How is blocking piracy taking your privacy away from you? Is protecting the citizens and their industry a bad thing?


Would you not agree that NOT censoring TPB but arresting those who are actually stealing the content to put up in the first place and finding those who run the site and putting THEM in jail would be the better option?
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

Of course, and pay for the services they provide me. Why should they develop games for years just to have them pirated?


back in the day games usualy made a demo to be released befor the game release. so we could check if we liked the game yes or no. like when you want to buy a car. you also want to check where you pay your money for.
but they barely do that anymore. so the only reason i used pirate bay only to check out the game if it is worth my money.

isn't that valit reason? if i like it i'm gonna buy it but if i find it **** then i'm happy i didn't spend my money on it.
the industry could easly go against these pirates by releasing a demo.

anyway. a lock on pirate bay wont do anything there are loads of sites whit the same service.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

so the only reason i used pirate bay only to check out the game if it is worth my money.


Exactly, and this is what the majority use it for. The proof being in the continuing profits for the game and film industries.

anyway. a lock on pirate bay wont do anything there are loads of sites whit the same service.


In fact, the opposite effect has taken place. The Pirate Bay is more popular than ever!
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Here is an article about Mobile Blacklists being a bit too heavy handed. We know what businesses will do if given the chance. I think we can expect to see more of this:

On Monday, the initial report surfaced where political websites, Tor project and digital rights websites were also placed on UK mobile blacklists. This case already served as an excellent reminder why censoring and blacklisting websites donât work. Some might argue that maybe these are just exceptions. Maybe these are just honest mistakes someone somewhere along the line and that what was initially discovered shows merely the limits of overblocking. Now, new reports are surfacing that these websites already previously found on the blacklist may be more like the tip of the iceberg.

My gut tells me its the tip of the iceburg.

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

back in the day games usualy made a demo to be released befor the game release. so we could check if we liked the game yes or no. like when you want to buy a car. you also want to check where you pay your money for.
but they barely do that anymore. so the only reason i used pirate bay only to check out the game if it is worth my money.

isn't that valit reason? if i like it i'm gonna buy it but if i find it **** then i'm happy i didn't spend my money on it.
the industry could easly go against these pirates by releasing a demo.

anyway. a lock on pirate bay wont do anything there are loads of sites whit the same service.


I like how all you guys blame the industry "Well if you want to decrease crime, make your games perfect! And give us demos! And make games cheaper! And free!". Good luck with that.

If you insist that nothing is "stolen", then let us compare it to a service instead. After all, that is what you think it is. Now lets say you hire someone to come to your house and fix your pipes or mow your lawn or something. If they do the service provided, and you don't pay them, is that ethical? Even if you didn't like the service, you can't just go "I DID NOT LIKE IT! YOU GET NO MONEY FROM ME!", you still have to pay them for the services they provided you. So why do you not have to pay for the service that the game makers did?

Exactly, and this is what the majority use it for.


Statistics, please. You can't just say "Well me and my buddy said this, so everyone must!". You can't just use personal experience as an argument, so of course you must have some statistics backing this?

In fact, the opposite effect has taken place. The Pirate Bay is more popular than ever!


Torrentfreak is obviously a biased sight, I don't know why everyone on this tread seems to think that it is somehow credible.

Now of course when checking a biased sight like that, you have to check it's links to make sure they are valid and to see what they actually say. I checked the links of all the torrentfreak links in that article, and can you guess where they all take you? Torrentfreak articles!

Here is an article about Mobile Blacklists being a bit too heavy handed. We know what businesses will do if given the chance. I think we can expect to see more of this:


What exactly is the blacklist in the UK? A bunch of pornographic sights? That don't get blocked? Who cares what is on it then?

My gut tells me its the tip of the iceburg.


Based on what prior logic? You are using a ton of fallacies that, if used by a Christian in a different argument, you would jump on as obvious fallacies. So why are you using your personal experiences as fact?

Or I actually told you to stop being so belligerent and yelling about how much you think its all about winning an argument. Is that so difficult for you to acccept? That you have been stomping around the last 8 pages ranting your darn head off!


Is it?

Now tell me honestly, do you or do you not think that you are winning this argument?

If you need me to cite exact occasions then you must really keep your head in the sand!


Then I must have my head in the sand. Cite it! Cite it! Cite it!

We already went over this, it doesnt lose them money and really, who the hell cares when they earn so much. Small companies are rarely affected by internet piracy and the pirate bay was the least of the worlds concerns.


Does it? You have not provided anything that says otherwise, and all your attempts to do so, in reality, do say that it loses them money. And are in Dutch. Large companies, the ones that are more likely to get stolen from, are likely to lose money. So I suppose they care? You can't steal from someone just because they are rich.

It does lose them money, so it is morally wrong, no matter how rich they are.

Would you not agree that NOT censoring TPB but arresting those who are actually stealing the content to put up in the first place and finding those who run the site and putting THEM in jail would be the better option?


It would be rather difficult for them to do, considering the massive amount of people doing it. And wouldn't it be effectively the same, with no one to pay for the upkeep of the site?

And then there is the fact that you would have to go to several different countries in order to arrest them all, which would get really difficult...
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Torrentfreak is obviously a biased sight


What are you on about. There is no such thing as an un-bias site.

I checked the links of all the torrentfreak links in that article, and can you guess where they all take you? Torrentfreak articles!


You didnt look very well then.

Now tell me honestly, do you or do you not think that you are winning this argument?


I think that Im bored of your attitude. No wait, I definatly am bored of your attitude. Talking to you is like talking to an aggressive miget with a height complex.

You have not provided anything that says otherwise, and all your attempts to do so, in reality, do say that it loses them money.


I dont need to prove it. YOU need to go and see how much more these companies are earning every year and then ask yourself, if they are losing money, how are the SAME PEOPLE spending money on the games and films. If piracy was an issue, they would be LOSING money, not gaining money. So it really does look like they are censoring stuff to make money, not for moral reasons.


It does lose them money


Prove it. And really, Im not that bothered about the morals, the truth is, morally or not, I feel justified downloading a game to see if its worth my money.

It would be rather difficult for them to do, considering the massive amount of people doing it.


HAHAHAAAAAAAAAA.... oh wait, lemmie compose myself. By the gods you are funny! Is this the same massive amount of people who you are telling me to prove ONLY steal the game and lose companies money? Yet you pull this out your rear and use it as a part of your argument! I suddenly believe in god, because this cannot happen in a world where there is no god! In fact, are you god? and your just messin with me

And then there is the fact that you would have to go to several different countries in order to arrest them all, which would get really difficult...


Because its a western right to police the world?
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

What are you on about. There is no such thing as an un-bias site.


Yes, but you don't get your research on your toothpaste from the company that makes it, you get it from an independent source, or all toothpaste would "Cure cancer, make you skinny, and grants wishes".

You didnt look very well then.


And where, exactly, did the article link to that?

I think that Im bored of your attitude. No wait, I definatly am bored of your attitude. Talking to you is like talking to an aggressive miget with a height complex.


So I will assume from the fact that you didn't answer my question is yes, like it was last time? Well I think I am beating you, so thanks for proving my point.

I dont need to prove it. YOU need to go and see how much more these companies are earning every year and then ask yourself, if they are losing money, how are the SAME PEOPLE spending money on the games and films. If piracy was an issue, they would be LOSING money, not gaining money. So it really does look like they are censoring stuff to make money, not for moral reasons.


Yes you do, that is the burden of proof. YOU need to prove it. How does that logic work? Something is doing well, therefore the negatives are not effecting it! Bank robbery must not effect the banks, since the bank is still making more profit then ever! Stealing from Walmart must not effect it, since it is still making money! Refusing to pay for that operation your doctors preformed on you must not actually harm the hospital, since they are still making money! That is how it works, isn't it? Global warming must be fake, since last Sunday was really cold!

Prove it. And really, Im not that bothered about the morals, the truth is, morally or not, I feel justified downloading a game to see if its worth my money.


So you are a morally corrupt scum of the earth then?

"The Business Software Alliance (BSA), in conjunction with global market intelligence firm IDC, released its seventh annual study on software piracy on Tuesday. The study estimates that the commercial value of pirated software globally was $51.4 billion. According to the BSA, while losses due to piracy are hard to quantify, the $51.4 billion is most likely lower than the actual losses sustained due to piracy in 2009." (Link)(Study 1)(Study 2)

A little bit dated, most are from 2009 ish, but they do show that piracy does have considerable losses.

s this the same massive amount of people who you are telling me to prove ONLY steal the game and lose companies money? Yet you pull this out your rear and use it as a part of your argument!


Eh? Are you saying that there are not a lot of people using piracy? The statistics say that there are a ton of people using piracy, arresting them all would be logistically difficult, regardless of the fact that they are thieves. Or are you suggesting that, if piracy was as bad as I say it was, we should go and arrest 20% of the population?

Fines would be more effective in this situation anyway.

I suddenly believe in god, because this cannot happen in a world where there is no god! In fact, are you god? and your just messin with me


I was wondering when someone would figure that out.

Because its a western right to police the world?


Only America can police the world, stay out of it UK. You can only start to police the world after we have started it.

Which is what you are trying here, SOPA and all that started in America. But since we have not approved it, your not aloud to police it. Until we start. Then your justified. That is how it works, right?
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

And where, exactly, did the article link to that?


Meh, look harder. I dont put burden of proof on people unless there is some fantasy element involved.

"The Business Software Alliance (BSA), in conjunction with global market intelligence firm IDC, released its seventh annual study on software piracy on Tuesday. The study estimates that the commercial value of pirated software globally was $51.4 billion. According to the BSA, while losses due to piracy are hard to quantify, the $51.4 billion is most likely lower than the actual losses sustained due to piracy in 2009."


First of all, good! (oh morally evil me) And second, the BSA is the most bias source you can get. They are not a bi-partisan agency, they are a company. They also lie left right and center and dont tell you where the "losses" appear from i.e. CD's (on a rapid decline for the last 10 years anyway) and video (done and dusted). These guys will use hidden elements to boost statistics to their favour and also assumes rather alot of factors e.g. not including exact amounts of freeware and open source software downloaded and going by surveys to make sums out of thin air(which are completely bias and useless on an issue with exact figures like this one). Little wonder I give a scummy morally corrupt shrug

Yes you do, that is the burden of proof.


The burden of proof is also on you to prove the detrimental effect of piracy. Not that you need to, as I say, record profits for the games and movie industry say clearly enough.

So you are a morally corrupt scum of the earth then?


Only in certain peoples view, much like everything else. You too are morally corrupt scum, so join the club. We will both burn in hell at the end of creation, me and you, together. We can share a window seat, I dont mind but I prefer you dont keep this attitude up all the way down please, its a long fall. (Bring a book)

I was wondering when someone would figure that out.


Sometimes its more fun to feed the troll

Anyway, where you are forcefully argumentative, I am argumentatively stubborn. I dont think Im winning anything, I simply think Im right, which is not the same thing really.

Only America can police the world, stay out of it UK. You can only start to police the world after we have started it.

Which is what you are trying here, SOPA and all that started in America. But since we have not approved it, your not aloud to police it. Until we start. Then your justified. That is how it works, right?


Cant argue with that.

I would be happy to carry this on elsewhere. Like I said, this is about censorship and while piracy is connected, its a small part of the equasion.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Meh, look harder. I dont put burden of proof on people unless there is some fantasy element involved.


It would seem you are just not admitting that it is your fantasy.

Checked twice more, and they all lead to another article on the same sight or a place called "Pirateparty" or something like that.

First of all, good! (oh morally evil me)


If you where in a vidiogame right now, the shopkeepers and guards would be killing you.

And second, the BSA is the most bias source you can get.


...Your source is basically "Pirates pirating pirates pirates from pirates. And pirates. What we are saying is that we like piracy", and somehow a legitimate organization is biased?

They are not a bi-partisan agency, they are a company.


They are a formation of companies, which is a lot more reliable then a blog about piracy.

They also lie left right and center and dont tell you where the "losses" appear from i.e. CD's (on a rapid decline for the last 10 years anyway) and video (done and dusted)


They "The methodology consists in estimating the number of computers shipped in a given country, as well as the average quantity of software installed on these machines. Separately, an estimation of the quantity of legitimate software sold in the country is produced, and the difference between the total amount of software estimated to be in use in the country and the estimation of software sold is used as an indicator of the rate of unauthorized copy. An estimation of the total amount lost is produced by multiplying the estimator number of unauthorized copies by the price of the original software." (Wikipedia article on the subject)

These guys will use hidden elements to boost statistics to their favour and also assumes rather alot of factors e.g. not including exact amounts of freeware and open source software downloaded and going by surveys to make sums out of thin air(which are completely bias and useless on an issue with exact figures like this one).


It is not going to be exact, but even if it is off by a billion dollars, ten billion dollars, forty billion dollars, then it is still a huge amount to lose to piracy. There is a large amount of freeware downloaded, I will assume that is counted under the "Legitimate" mark making it actually go the other way, making piracy look less then it actually is. After all, if 20 out of every download is a legitimate freeware, then that is 20% in the legitimate category.

Little wonder I give a scummy morally corrupt shrug


I thought it was because you can not see past the evil mist in your eyes and are corrupted by greed to the point that you will steal something just because you want it, and if someone tells you not to do that you try to justify yourself.

The burden of proof is also on you to prove the detrimental effect of piracy. Not that you need to, as I say, record profits for the games and movie industry say clearly enough.


And therefore a cold summer means global warming is a hoax? It is likely to rise, despite a massive amount of theft, do to a ton of factors, having record sales means just as little as having record lows.

Only in certain peoples view, much like everything else


So in most peoples views, you are morally corrupt scum. Is that closer to the truth?

You too are morally corrupt scum, so join the club.


And what did I do, exactly?

We will both burn in hell at the end of creation, me and you, together. We can share a window seat, I dont mind but I prefer you dont keep this attitude up all the way down please, its a long fall. (Bring a book)


Fine, but you must bring the snacks.

Sometimes its more fun to feed the troll

Anyway, where you are forcefully argumentative, I am argumentatively stubborn. I dont think Im winning anything, I simply think Im right, which is not the same thing really.


Isn't it? Thinking your right in a debate is the same thing as thinking your winning.

Cant argue with that.

I would be happy to carry this on elsewhere. Like I said, this is about censorship and while piracy is connected, its a small part of the equasion.


Isn't it? So far the only "censorship" that has been done is on is sights that are accused of piracy, like pirates bay (I am wondering why this didn't go first...) or Megavidio.
AnaLoGMunKy
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AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

It would seem you are just not admitting that it is your fantasy.


To you.

I thought it was because you can not see past the evil mist in your eyes and are corrupted by greed to the point that you will steal something just because you want it, and if someone tells you not to do that you try to justify yourself.


Something like that.

And what did I do, exactly?


You have "Denounced GOD in all his glory" :P

So in most peoples views, you are morally corrupt scum. Is that closer to the truth?


In most peoples views! A blanket statement like that is a bit hypocritical, since you told me to prove mine previously.

Also how strict are we being here? Is one download ok but downloading lots is a sin? What if I balance it out by being a great person and helping lots of people? Who does the judging? If I saw direct pain coming out of my actions do you think that would change my cold, black, pirate heart?

The methodology consists in estimating the number of computers shipped in a given country, as well as the average quantity of software installed on these machines.


Estimating? Average? Load of bolairicks!

Thinking your right in a debate is the same thing as thinking your winning.


Hopefully I am winning, because I want to make people aware of this to help keep the internet free. It doesnt actually mean that I think I am winning this thread. I dont think people will come in here, read all our text and go "yeah, that LoG dude, he's totally winning!".

It is likely to rise, despite a massive amount of theft, do to a ton of factors, having record sales means just as little as having record lows.


It clearly does not. If piracy was a serious issue and all the people who downloaded pirate stuff really never buy the software and therefore lose these company's money then logically they would be losing money, not gaining money.

So far the only "censorship" that has been done is on is sights that are accused of piracy,


They censored Mohammed from newspapers under fear of death threats. Regardless of whether you think they were right to do so, its a clear example.

Fine, but you must bring the snacks.


I will bring snacks.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

I am in software paradise
Original Xbox360 game costs here about 150 SAR
and pirated one costs 15 SAR
and they hack your Xbox to make it play pirated CDs for 100 SAR.
and no one stops this!

314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

To you.


So who did you admit it to then?

Something like that.


*Nods* called it.

You have "Denounced GOD in all his glory" :P


Ah, how amoral of me?

In most peoples views! A blanket statement like that is a bit hypocritical, since you told me to prove mine previously.


*Rolls Eyes*.

Most people in the room I am in currently. How is that for exact?

Also how strict are we being here? Is one download ok but downloading lots is a sin? What if I balance it out by being a great person and helping lots of people? Who does the judging? If I saw direct pain coming out of my actions do you think that would change my cold, black, pirate heart?


Is stealing once a luxury ok? Nope. Morals don't work like that, this is not a video game where you can murder five people but make up for it by going to a church and making a large donation to charity, stealing is stealing. Everyone does the judging. Maybe, I kind of doubt it. Probably in that order.

Estimating? Average? Load of bolairicks!


Yes, how dare they try to use "Statistics" in order to prove something! Global warming is a hoax and smoking does not cause cancer! And the world is only 6000 years old! Since estimating is so unreliable, and only exact numbers count for anything.

Hopefully I am winning, because I want to make people aware of this to help keep the internet free. It doesnt actually mean that I think I am winning this thread. I dont think people will come in here, read all our text and go "yeah, that LoG dude, he's totally winning!".


But you do think you are winning.

It clearly does not. If piracy was a serious issue and all the people who downloaded pirate stuff really never buy the software and therefore lose these company's money then logically they would be losing money, not gaining money.


And how so?

Now lets go back to my global warming example. Global warming is happening, right? Now last summer was really cold for a summer, therefore global warming is not happening! That is how it works, right? It was cold, so that means it can't possibly be getting warmer from global warming?!

They censored Mohammed from newspapers under fear of death threats. Regardless of whether you think they were right to do so, its a clear example.


Newspapers where private companies that put what they want onto their newspapers. If they want to give into threats on their life, it is their right to do so. How is that relevant to the internet?

I am in software paradise
Original Xbox360 game costs here about 150 SAR
and pirated one costs 15 SAR
and they hack your Xbox to make it play pirated CDs for 100 SAR.
and no one stops this!


So, in order to save 35 SAR, (1 Saudi riyal = 0.2666 US dollars, if that is what he is talking about, he saved like 10$....) you ripped off the company that actually makes the games, sponsored criminals who probably do more than just pirate a bunch of software, and committed a crime yourself? For $10?
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
1,826 posts
Nomad

So, in order to save 35 SAR, (1 Saudi riyal = 0.2666 US dollars, if that is what he is talking about, he saved like 10$....) you ripped off the company that actually makes the games, sponsored criminals who probably do more than just pirate a bunch of software, and committed a crime yourself? For $10?

hack is done every year or so(you dont have to get a CD specific hack)
and
its not a crime here.
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