ForumsWEPREvolutionism or creationism

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Freon
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Freon
24 posts
Nomad

im just opening this topic so that people can have a NICE, FREINDLY place to talk about their beliefs, i Myself believe in evolutionism

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thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Evolution is driven by adaptation, not random mutation.

Also, a good theory out now is that our Universe was not a random event, but simply a single permutation out of the googols of possible Universes, and we are but one of those googols of Universes. we were not necessarily created, but simply part of a list of possibilities.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

It's not about flipping them. Your saying the coins appeared randomly and flipped themselves.


Actually no that's not what I'm saying. First off this analogy goes beyond the scope of evolution into abiogenesis. If starting from that theory it's still not what I'm saying. I would be saying the conditions and materials that were present allowed for the events to take place.

Your saying the universe just happened,


I've been debating evolution not the Big Bang theory. But even that didn't just happen.

than Life just happened,


I've been debating evolution not abiogenesis. But as I stated in the analogy. it's a matter of having the materials and the proper conditions, not it just happening.

and randomly fish turn into fishermen.


Finally we are at evolution, and no that's not what I'm saying. While there are random elements the processes of evolution aren't entirely random. There would have been many steps between fish and humans. So the change wouldn't be fish to humans, It would be closer to fish > fish that can exist on land for a period of time > amphibians > reptiles > mammalian like reptiles > mammals > primeapes > humans. This to is over simplified and missing many steps but it does give a better example of the process.

Thinking about it since you keep bringing up "it just happened", isn't that basically what you say a creator did? That a creator wanted it to exist so it just did.
Billiam13579
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Billiam13579
9 posts
Shepherd

I think that MageGrayWolf has a pretty good point.

I believe that it was evolution even though I'm a christian. I just think that science shows more proof than the Good Book does.

wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

'>.> this entire thread has run away from me. Normally I keep track of these things, but I can't even figure out half of what you're saying yielee. You're just like most creationists, you make a point, don't give proof, and then go blasting those who have made logical arguements against your illogic. So in a sense you're a child who chooses to ignore things by screaming, "I'm not listening! No no no, you're wrong because I say so! I'm not listening"

@ Mage. I admire your ability to perservere in the face of absolute ignorance.

Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Wolf, I'm afraid that's how creationists argue. 'the bible says it's true' and 'No, you aren't right because you're wrong' is as far as many Creationists go. The rest are either sensible enough to see the metaphors in the Bible and understand that Evolution happened (in their case, because of God designing life to do so) OR they try to come up with pseudo-scientific theories to fit the literal Biblical account of things.

wolf1991
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wolf1991
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Farmer

OR they try to come up with pseudo-scientific theories to fit the literal Biblical account of things.


Which are illogical and make people dumber for reading them.
yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

Evolution is driven by adaptation, not random mutation.

Also, a good theory out now is that our Universe was not a random event, but simply a single permutation out of the googols of possible Universes, and we are but one of those googols of Universes. we were not necessarily created, but simply part of a list of possibilities.


Hi alt, I don't think most creationists have a lot of problems with adaptation of existing species, but MGW keeps on about beneficial random mutations in a single species, as if that's the key to the argument, when it's not. It's all about the evolutionist's idea of randomly generating new species. Each animal has its own system to produce young, and you can't really be altering that system randomly without killing them off. So making new Random DNA that benefits the organism so much that it becomes a whole new organism just doesn't make sense. According to evolutionism, the oldest living fossil is archebacteria that has 500,000 DNA in length. The human DNA is 6 billion in length. That means, according to evolutionism, that over 4 billion years random mutations added more than 1 DNA per year all making sense to generate humans. I don't think all that happened randomly, and that's a big difference between creationism and evolutionism.

Also, I don't know much about theories. But the way you described that cosmic one doesn't sound as good to me as it does to you. I know you probably didn't describe it well. But it sounds like someone asks, 'How is is possible that we're here?' and it answers, 'Well, it was possible, out of everything that was possible at the time, so that's why it's possible.' It also doesn't make sense to me because the rules for all the possibilities had to be formed first, in order to make it possible, didn't they?

@MGW
We're talking about Creation. You have to have starting material to generate evolution and that starting material according to evolutionist atheists, such as you, had to come from abiogenesis and cosmology. If you don't want to talk about those things, then you can't criticize Creationists for believing they didn't randomly appear. And you can't criticize Creationists for being critical of evolutionism when you don't even let yourself discuss what it is that they believe.

On the last bit "it just happened". It's only about whether the Universe appeared randomly, or was intentional. That basic question is something everyone should be able to answer in their own way. Their conclusion tells them whether they are a creationist or not. After that, they can decide about evolutionism and if they are a theistic evolutionist or not.

@Avorne and wolf1991,
Why do people like you have all this anger against Creationists? Creationists come in many different kinds. Your the ones screaming loudly for no reason telling us how stupid we are for actually thinking the universe was intended. If I was covering my ears ignoring his questions, then I wouldn't have spent so much of time to repel his evolutionary goatsbeard question on the bottom of page 121, which he totally ignored, by the way, in the exact same way you accuse Creationists of ignoring evolutionist's arguments.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

Why do people like you have all this anger against Creationists? Creationists come in many different kinds. Your the ones screaming loudly for no reason telling us how stupid we are for actually thinking the universe was intended. If I was covering my ears ignoring his questions, then I wouldn't have spent so much of time to repel his evolutionary goatsbeard question on the bottom of page 121, which he totally ignored, by the way, in the exact same way you accuse Creationists of ignoring evolutionist's arguments.


Oh I have my reasons, most are persoanl, namely I did not enjoy having religion force fed to me for nine years. Furthermore I would like to point out you have ignored SEVERAL points made. You also ignored my challenge I gave to creationists a few pages back. So I'll give it to you personally, because I feel it would be a good use of your time and help you actually formulate a point.

Without using the bible or any religious text, prove creationism.
thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

Also, I don't know much about theories. But the way you described that cosmic one doesn't sound as good to me as it does to you. I know you probably didn't describe it well. But it sounds like someone asks, 'How is is possible that we're here?' and it answers, 'Well, it was possible, out of everything that was possible at the time, so that's why it's possible.' It also doesn't make sense to me because the rules for all the possibilities had to be formed first, in order to make it possible, didn't they?


It was explained like this: imagine the Multiverse as a neverending strip of bubble wrap. Each bubble is a Universe. There are multiple different Universes, all different from each other. We exist as one of those Universes - we exist the way we do not because of the will of a creator, but because we are a permutation of what a Universe could be. The reason everything is good and suitable for us is because it is possible - it is likely that many of the Universes would not even contain human life. I only know the basic details of the theory as a whole. It as detailed on that Morgan Freeman show about the Universe. The theory actually could work with or without some sort of creator - there are explanations of it that work with or without one. It's fairly interesting.

MGW keeps on about beneficial random mutations in a single species,


Doesn't matter what he's saying or what you think he's saying - beneficial mutations do occur, but because survival requires them.

It's all about the evolutionist's idea of randomly generating new species


Any 'evolutionist' who thinks new species are randomly generated needs to know what they stand behind. Speciation occurs because of continued adaptation, not random generation.

Each animal has its own system to produce young, and you can't really be altering that system randomly without killing them off.


First of all, all of the animals in the environment would be changing, so reproduction wouldn't be a problem. Also, evolution itself is driven by killing off the inadequate - the unfit die and the fit reproduce and create more fit organisms.

the oldest living fossil is archebacteria that has 500,000 DNA in length. The human DNA is 6 billion in length. That means, according to evolutionism, that over 4 billion years random mutations added more than 1 DNA per year all making sense to generate humans


They weren't random mutations - the bacteria would replicate continuously, being fueled by all the energy coming in from the Sun, allowing them to grow more complex. Eventually, one of those evolutionary branches comes out with humans.

There is proof that humans evolved from another creature, at least one other creature. The genes that control what and how many body parts you get are called controller genes. Controller genes are never cut out of DNA, in case the creature needs them again. Basically, the DNa of all creatures alive today serves as a genealogy of what they evolved from - what creatures in their lineage had. Chickens have deactivated controller genes for reptilian scales and teeth, showing that they evolved from dinosaurs or other reptiles. Humans have deactivated controller genes for vestigial tails. Sometimes, harmful mutations result in a creature being born with one of the deactivated controller genes flipped on - this is very rare in humans. I'm pretty sure only a handful of people have ever been born with a vestigial tail. Thing is, it's impossible to have controller genes for something unless your species used to have them but were then edited out due to natural selection.

I don't think all that happened randomly, and that's a big difference between creationism and evolutionism.


Once again, randomness does not drive evolutionary changes, environment does. I understand believing something was intentional, but that's sort of a preference because there's nothing positively suggesting it was intentional.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

but MGW keeps on about beneficial random mutations in a single species, as if that's the key to the argument, when it's not.


"While there are random elements the processes of evolution aren't entirely random."

Alt has gotten int further detail.

Besides your the one who started off with the whole "don't believe in evolution because random chance doesn't happen" bit.

We're talking about Creation. You have to have starting material to generate evolution and that starting material


This has been a topic comparing evolution with creation. Not evolution with other theories. I honestly have no idea where you stand since you seem to accept evolution but still deny it happens and claim instead it's the result of creation. These attempts to shift the argument to other aspect just come off as seeming evasive.

Far as we can tell to the point of it being a law matter/energy can't be created or destroyed. Or as Carl Sagan once said "If we are to say God has always existed, why not save a step and say the universe has always existed." More accurately stated would have been to say matter/energy but anyway the basic idea still holds.

according to evolutionist atheists, such as you, had to come from abiogenesis and cosmology.


Your again mixing up the various theories. Evolution has nothing to do with where the material came from or how life began. So no that's not necessarily what an 'evolutionist' states. There are likely many who do accept these other theories due to the supporting evidence for them, but they are not requirements for accepting evolution.

On the last bit "it just happened". It's only about whether the Universe appeared randomly, or was intentional.


As I had said the Big Bang theory doesn't state it was just appearing randomly.

which he totally ignored, by the way, in the exact same way you accuse Creationists of ignoring evolutionist's arguments.


Considering you basically said organisms change over time, I really had no idea where you were coming from at that point.
yielee
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yielee
618 posts
Shepherd

That's a lot so I have to sift through both of your guys responses since it doesn't look like you guys understand me. That's a lot to do with preconceptions against Creationists, but also my own fault too. So I have to read some and explain it later best I can.

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

since it doesn't look like you guys understand me.


I understand what you're saying.
wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

Without using the bible or any religious text, prove creationism.


I will attempt to argue my point of view but the only proof I have is that the chicken came first, not the egg.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

I will attempt to argue my point of view but the only proof I have is that the chicken came first, not the egg.


What proof do you have of that?
Avorne
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Avorne
3,085 posts
Nomad

Why do people like you have all this anger against Creationists? Creationists come in many different kinds. Your the ones screaming loudly for no reason telling us how stupid we are for actually thinking the universe was intended. If I was covering my ears ignoring his questions, then I wouldn't have spent so much of time to repel his evolutionary goatsbeard question on the bottom of page 121, which he totally ignored, by the way, in the exact same way you accuse Creationists of ignoring evolutionist's arguments.


I hold religion responsible for millions of deaths. On top of that it discourages open thinking and creates divisions and rifts that, if we started right NOW, would take decades if not centuries to heal.
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