Forums → WEPR → Evolutionism or creationism
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im just opening this topic so that people can have a NICE, FREINDLY place to talk about their beliefs, i Myself believe in evolutionism
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What's your point?
You said climate change might have killed them, [and I'm sorry my map failed, AG forums and I don't get along I guess], but the map I showed didn't completely show semi-arid/desert climates within the Neanderthal range.
Though some teeth have been found with cooked plant matter, the belief on them is still that they were, for the most part, carnivorous. Them having been there for 200,000 years or so would have, I think, given them enough time to become very good hunters in their region. If the climate were to have changed, I'm sure that those left in areas that attracted live games would have been able to out-compete Humans, who were just entering the area, no? This is where the question of the environment changing comes into question. Their range was so large that for some of them the environment just moved South, where many already were -- Same environment, same animals, and we still win. Just a little questionable. That's what I meant.
Us moving into a colder environment and developing lighter skin isn't specialization? That's exactly what we see with virtually every species moving from a warmer to cooler environment.
No, it is. I'm saying that it does not help prove why Humans are such general species. They are by no means controlled by their environment in ways that, a Penguin or Cactus might be. Since skin specialization isn't much to us, it is not as if White males have been living in South Africa for centuries now, dying due to exposure towards the sun, is it?
Also, I don't think that I am adding God into the equation of things I do not know. I don't think God has much to do with the weather at all. I think there will be some things that we do not know that we will find out in the future. Yet with evolution I think differently. You said the human fossil record is pretty much complete. If that is the case, then I haven't heard too much about it. The reason is that if Humans did become so dominant a species as to move across the entire Earth, then all of its transitional species died out in the making. Even with this lengthy gradual process that takes so much time, all of these transitional species that you spoke about happened to go away or just become extinct in Africa, and then finally after all of this evolution, Cro-Magnons decided to jump the boat.
Its a little sketchy. I don't think we're ever going to be able to fill that 'we don't know' variable in. [Just for the question of evolution]. This might just be because I'm already biased in wanting to defend religion, Idk, but the idea still stands.
relax
I wonder what a God would do for relaxation...
And for the first time the Youtube link actually looks a little entertaining so I'll watch it when I get to my laptop
but the map I showed didn't completely show semi-arid/desert climates within the Neanderthal range.
I looked, their range remained in the colder climates of the late ice age. That's exactly where they would be expected to be if they were specialized for that colder climate.
Them having been there for 200,000 years or so would have, I think, given them enough time to become very good hunters in their region. If the climate were to have changed, I'm sure that those left in areas that attracted live games would have been able to out-compete Humans, who were just entering the area, no?
Not necessarily. We're very adaptable to different environments, something the neanderthals may have lacked. The neanderthals hadn't faced such competition for resources or the change in the environment to a warmer climate, something we could handle more efficiently. This creates a blow to the species on two fronts, possibly more.
I won't completely ignore the other hypotheses either though, so even if I may be wrong about the change in climate we still have a good number of other possibilities that could have put us at an advantage. Another thing to consider is maybe each hypothesis played at least a small role in their demise.
Further more it's quite possible they were the fitter of the species. "Survival of the fittest" can be misleading. it's a matter of reproduction. Let's use an example with just two people. These people are students at the same school. StudentA is a perfectly sculpted, head of the football team straight A+ student. StudentB has nothing really all that special about him, not very strong, C average student, horrible at sports. In ever imaginable way StudentA is the fittest of the two. But for what ever reason StudentA never get's a girl pregnant, maybe he's a jerk and drives the girls off before getting that far, maybe he had his testicles cut off in a horrible shop class accident, maybe he just doesn't find a girl that strikes his interest. But StudentB does find a girlfriend, gets marriage and has a bunch of kids. StudentB even though not the fittest gets to pass his genes on to the next generation. This scenario can also apply to groups, or in the case of neanderthals and homosapiens, different species.
No, it is. I'm saying that it does not help prove why Humans are such general species. They are by no means controlled by their environment in ways that, a Penguin or Cactus might be.
Yes the guiding principles of evolution apply to us the same as a penguin or a cactus.
Since skin specialization isn't much to us, it is not as if White males have been living in South Africa for centuries now, dying due to exposure towards the sun, is it?
perhaps not now, but lighter skin could have proved an advantage in an environment where it snowed a lot, especially for a species that survives in part by hunting.
I'm not saying that's why the specific mutation took hold, I don't know exactly why.
Also, I don't think that I am adding God into the equation of things I do not know. I don't think God has much to do with the weather at all. I think there will be some things that we do not know that we will find out in the future. Yet with evolution I think differently.
If your not trying to inject god into the unknown aspects aka random variables of evolution then where does he fit?
There is no real reason other then some sort of special pleading that you say god didn't play a role in the weather but he did with evolution. They both depend on explainable natural processes to occur. Just as we can easily remove god as a variable for a thunder storm to form, we do the same with evolution.
Also really trying to combine the two really doesn't work since as a scientific theory we are forced to remove extraneous non functional variables and variables that can't be backed by evidence. God fits both of these. So even if such a being is real, he wasn't needed for the process of evolution.
You said the human fossil record is pretty much complete. If that is the case, then I haven't heard too much about it. The reason is that if Humans did become so dominant a species as to move across the entire Earth, then all of its transitional species died out in the making. Even with this lengthy gradual process that takes so much time, all of these transitional species that you spoke about happened to go away or just become extinct in Africa, and then finally after all of this evolution, Cro-Magnons decided to jump the boat.
Its a little sketchy. I don't think we're ever going to be able to fill that 'we don't know' variable in. [Just for the question of evolution]. This might just be because I'm already biased in wanting to defend religion, Idk, but the idea still stands.
It's not at all sketchy. Many of the transitional forms found belonged to direct lineages of ours. So long as groups didn't diversify we would see the previous forms disappear in favor of other forms. Even with diversified groups, those groups could have simply died out.
This guy took a number of artistic rendering of transitional species and compiled them showing how we may have evolved from an earlier apelike form.
Quest for Truth: Transitional Species
And for the first time the Youtube link actually looks a little entertaining so I'll watch it when I get to my laptop
Just so you know it doesn't exactly address your argument, the guy just took the arguments used by creationists and applied them to gravity instead of evolution.
Another thing as an intelligently guided process evolution really comes off as being very clumsy and makes the "intelligent agent" look like he had no idea what it was doing.
Sorry for the triple post.
Let's just for a moment say there is a god and that god does guide evolution from behind the scenes. Why then would god create such species like neanderthal just to have to go extinct?
if you believe a god is guiding the evolution. then you can no longer deny evolution. you just said it is real. then we will go over to abiogenesis and remove the god created us part aswell.
(i can't wait for them to finish their experiments.)
(i can't wait for them to finish their experiments.)
Are they running some new experiment on abiogenesis? I know so far we have had some pretty encouraging results in the formation of polymers and going from RNA to DNA. Really there hasn't been anything we haven't yet done that suggests life couldn't form on it's on.
they have not yet been able to create protocells in a laboratory setting. this will most likely happen whitin 5 year tho.
when they have made protocells, we (humans) can claim to have made new life from not living materials. untill then there is no solit proof for abiogenesis yet. (atleast i couldn't find)
they have not yet been able to create protocells in a laboratory setting. this will most likely happen whitin 5 year tho.
when they have made protocells, we (humans) can claim to have made new life from not living materials. untill then there is no solit proof for abiogenesis yet. (atleast i couldn't find)
We have created molecular polymers (the building blocks of a cell) but we haven't figured out what order things need to go in for them to form protocells.
Here's an interesting bit of information. Though it is from 2008.
http://www.geneticstimes.com/research/Researchers_Build_Model_Protocell_Capable_of_Copying_DNA.asp
IF god dosent exist then why are there so many elements in the universe? The sun cant produce past iron. Do you expect me to belive the elements evolved?
Well merind3, how did we come along? No, you're not allowed to use "God" as your answer. I'm not entirely sure of how, but I think it's called abiogenesis if I remember right. If it can produce sentience (albeit over huge periods of time) then surely us being able to produce steel iron is much more amazing than how many bland elements there are, right?
- H
IF god dosent exist then why are there so many elements in the universe? The sun cant produce past iron. Do you expect me to belive the elements evolved?
Lol wtf? elements don't evolve, they simply changed with chemical reactions. Like in the sun.
IF god dosent exist then why are there so many elements in the universe? The sun cant produce past iron. Do you expect me to belive the elements evolved?
If I'm right, most of the elements formed gradually right after the big bang. The difference between the different elements is simply the number of orbitals and number of electrons on what energy levels. Also, elements do not evolve since they are not living things.
If god would exist, why would he have made all those elements? Why so complex?
IF god dosent exist then why are there so many elements in the universe? The sun cant produce past iron.
They are form in supernova explosions.
IF god dosent exist then why are there so many elements in the universe? The sun cant produce past iron.
let's take this a bit further. If God created the elements past iron and the last natural forming element is Plutonium (atomic number 94). This would mean humans have surpassed what God could do as we have synthetically created elements with the atomic number up to 118. (Atomic number being the number of protons in the nucleus of an atom.)
So your God in a way becomes inferior to humans with this argument.
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