ForumsWEPRGun control in the US

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theEPICgameKING
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theEPICgameKING
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Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.)
I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons.
Supporting evidence: the following skit:
What's your reason?
Setting: A gun shop, modern day.
A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please."
The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?"
The Customer says "I need one for personal protection."
The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell."
The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!"
The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left.
Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun."
Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks.
The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting."
The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy.
The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states.
The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff.
Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says.
The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot!
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet.
The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!"
The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves.
Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says.
The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks.
Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other".
"Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly.
The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer.
"Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows.
"Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"

Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!

The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?

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EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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There will only be a murder if you try to interfere with the burglary.

Except it's not always a burglary. A rare example, but what if you're targeted? Or they attack first to show they're serious? Perhaps they want to rape/torture/kill your family at random just because they can. You don't know their motives.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Ask a gun to kill someone. It's not going to happen. Now, If you pick that gun up, point it at someone and pull the trigger now you have killed someone using a gun.

Guns make people kill people. The study I posted before evidenced that the availability of guns does have an impact on suicide rates. I am ready to wager it also counts for homicide rates.

You do realize that if someone breaks into your house or is holding you at gunpoint, you can kill them in self defense? It isn't Murder, which is a crime punishable to a life in prison.

You do realise that due to reasons someone stated on the previous page, trying to shoot the one holding you at gunpoint is most likely suicide, or even harmful for your entire family?

Except it's not always a burglary.

Yeah but in the cases it's not, I would assume you don't have much chance anyway. People have been surprised in their sleep, how do you fight back when you were just woken up by a guy with a gun? Such cases are always tragic but I would challenge the usefulness of a gun safely stored somewhere in the house/room in such cases.
danielo
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danielo
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So now you are the lonely ranger? Defending your house from waves of random maniac torturers? What is it, Clockwork orange?!

You have seen waaaaay too many movies dear friend.
In my entire life here in Israel there was no case of it. And whena burgler entered my house my dad jist grabed a hockey stick (we sell them) and yelled, and all the three(!!!) Ran away.
Should he shoot them (If he had a gun)?

Long story short - no Apachee are going to assault your wagon gov'ner.

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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You have seen waaaaay too many movies dear friend.

Nope, I just read enough news to know that these things happen elsewhere. What stops it from happening here?
Nerdsoft
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As to burglary...
A thief is not that courageous as you might think. If a burglar breaks into my home, I know the one thing that will send him right back outside: The sound of me loading a 12 Gauge shotgun.

Or the sound of you handing over your wallet.
Why is it so hard to just part with your money? For God's sake, there's no reason to shoot someone when all they wanna do is rob you. Also, what if the thief has got a gun? Why don't we take away both parties' guns? And before you break out the old argument,
If the Government succeeds in restricting guns, the criminals that are already breaking the law are NOT going to walk over and hand their guns to the government. Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

Yes, but how will the new wannabe criminals get guns? The "black market"? Getting an illegal gun isn't as easy as it sounds. You can't just get onto Google Maps, take the first exit onto Felon Avenue and knock on the big steel door. It's harder than that.
You do realize that if someone breaks into your house or is holding you at gunpoint, you can kill them in self defense? It isn't Murder, which is a crime punishable to a life in prison.

Wow. You actually want to kill a burglar, don't you? Just... wow. There's no need for it, you know.
And wait 20 minutes for emergency services and law enforcement to maybe show up at the right house to investigate your brutal murder. Unless, of course, the police are the ones breaking in.

Wow. American cops are terrible. I'm glad I'm not in your country... unless, of course, you're exaggerating. I do hope not... you'd be the first one in the entire history of the online gun control debate.
Except it's not always a burglary. A rare example, but what if you're targeted? Or they attack first to show they're serious? Perhaps they want to rape/torture/kill your family at random just because they can. You don't know their motives.

Keyser Söze! Keeyser Söze! But seriously, this all leads back to why the hell they had guns in the first place. If you know it's illegal to buy a pistol, then many people will think twice before murdering.
In the UK, gun violence is very rare and almost always a small-scale gang-on-gang thing. In the US, gun violence is commonly found in most slums. Another thing - most UK muggings are a few teenagers and one knife. My uncle got burgled but he woke up midway through. Know what happened? He handed over his wallet, lost some money and cancelled his cards. End of story. Neither side had a gun and even if both sides had, I doubt my uncle would have been enough of a twat to pull it out.
Nerdsoft
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Nerdsoft
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Another interesting fact: the WHO's 2011 life expectancy thing has the UK's male and female life expectancy at 79 and 82, respectively. The US? 76 and 81. That's one year less than the UK for women, but three less for men. My theory? In America, the one who picks up the gun to "defend his family" (and then gets shot) is the man of the house. That's three years off the life expectancy because someone has just tried to threaten a burglar.

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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unless, of course, you're exaggerating.

Not in the least. My mom was cleaning a friend's house while they were away. She accidentally opened the door while the alarm was engaged. The security company called. She answered the phone and explained the situation, but they still had to send an officer to make sure everything was ok. It took about a half hour for him to show up. She explained the situation and he left. About an hour later, the company called again saying that they needed to send another officer as part of their procedure. Since she was almost done cleaning, she said "Ok, but I'll probably be gone before they show up." And she was.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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I ain't against gunsin particular for I like guns myself but amerca has taken their gun craze to extreme.
There should be laws and regulations govrning gun ownership.
As burgular, If he has a knif and I am empty handed, I'll go for him but if he has a gun and I have a gun too, I'll calmly surrender for most likely he will have an element of surprise iver me, at that moment, pulling a gun will be suicide.

rychus
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rychus
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Wow. You actually want to kill a burglar, don't you? Just... wow. There's no need for it, you know.


No, I don't want to kill a burglar, but if It came down to protecting what I have and those I love: I wouldn't hesitate.

For God's sake, there's no reason to shoot someone when all they wanna do is rob you.


Are you kidding me? Your taking the side of the thief. There's no reason to shoot someone when they want to rob you? That IS the reason you would shoot someone. You would protect yourself, those you love, and your belongings.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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For God's sake, there's no reason to shoot someone when all they wanna do is rob you.

I wonder how much control I could have over people like you in your country if I was a terrorist. It seems as easy as holding someone up with a weapon of any kind, strapping a small but deadly explosive to their neck, and telling them what to do, such as to do the same to the next person they see ad infinitum until the nation is mine.

There's no reason to shoot someone when they want to rob you? That IS the reason you would shoot someone. You would protect yourself, those you love, and your belongings.

It also shows that we don't comply with fear tactics.
Nerdsoft
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Nerdsoft
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I wonder how much control I could have over people like you in your country if I was a terrorist. It seems as easy as holding someone up with a weapon of any kind, strapping a small but deadly explosive to their neck, and telling them what to do, such as to do the same to the next person they see ad infinitum until the nation is mine.

http://markleeis.me/images/posts/boy-that-escalated-quickly-1.png
How did we get from "your possessions are not worth anyone's life" to "there's no need to kill someone just because they want to turn the entire population of Britain into walking bombs"? Logical failure detected.
I'm not a coward (well I am, but not in the way you describe), I just think it's stupid to pull out a freaking gun and risk your life (and that of your family) rather than go without a TV for a few months.
I'm actually glad I've never been to the US now.


Also, you know that only like 20% of US marines will actually look someone in the eye and shoot them, right? Now think. You are not a soldier. You are not trained to kill. Most likely, you take 30 seconds just to get the safety catch off. They are practiced, they are desperate, and they may well have a family to feed.
They know that if they surrender, they'll go to prison and possibly (in some backward places) to death row. You, on the other hand, are well-fed, happy, you've never had to kill someone, probably never even shot anything with the gun and... well, probably can't even work up the resolve. And if you hesitate so much as a second, then a pistol round will enter your head.
It also shows that we don't comply with fear tactics.

Which is why the male life expectancy in the USA is three years lower than the UK, where we have good gun control and a mostly sane government. In case you suddenly do a U-turn and blame healthcare, the life expectancy for women is only one year less.
No, I don't want to kill a burglar, but if It came down to protecting what I have and those I love: I wouldn't hesitate.

Such gung-ho materialism... leave a robber alone and almost all the time, they'll do the same to you. A metal door will work fine as well, you know. A steel safe room? No-one dies, you lose a few hundred bucks' worth of possessions. Big whoop.
Nerdsoft
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Not in the least. My mom was cleaning a friend's house while they were away. She accidentally opened the door while the alarm was engaged. The security company called. She answered the phone and explained the situation, but they still had to send an officer to make sure everything was ok. It took about a half hour for him to show up. She explained the situation and he left. About an hour later, the company called again saying that they needed to send another officer as part of their procedure. Since she was almost done cleaning, she said "Ok, but I'll probably be gone before they show up." And she was.

So... they took 30 minutes to get there for a survey when she had said she was fine? My uncle has been burgled before. It was fine. He lost some stuff and a wallet. Cancelled his cards, bought new stuff... not a big deal.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Are you kidding me? Your taking the side of the thief. There's no reason to shoot someone when they want to rob you? That IS the reason you would shoot someone. You would protect yourself, those you love, and your belongings.

I won't refute your right to protect your belongings, but death is NOT the penalty for burglary. Ideally, a burglar should be sentenced for burglary; I admit it is not always so easy, but a resident who shoots a burglar should, in my opinion, not get away unscolded.

I wonder how much control I could have over people like you in your country if I was a terrorist. It seems as easy as holding someone up with a weapon of any kind, strapping a small but deadly explosive to their neck, and telling them what to do, such as to do the same to the next person they see ad infinitum until the nation is mine.

Luckily for such things we have the police, army and other special units, who in my country at least seem to be much more competent (at least the police) than in America, the way you portray it. So, still no reason to arm every tomfool.

It also shows that we don't comply with fear tactics.

There is a time when you should stop trying to be a viking and be reasonable...
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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How did we get from "your possessions are not worth anyone's life" to "there's no need to kill someone just because they want to turn the entire population of Britain into walking bombs"?

Because the second you say to someone who threatens you "Ok, I'll do what you want", they own you. Based on what you said, giving up is standard there. Criminals expect it and could easily take things a lot further, since you're already under their thumb.

So... they took 30 minutes to get there for a survey when she had said she was fine?

She didn't remember the person's passcode while on the phone, so they were sent the same as if something was wrong because criminals can say stuff too.
Nerdsoft
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This is going round in circles. Let's abandon these arguments and come up with new ones.

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