Forums → WEPR → The Religion Debate Thread

No. I would probably not trust that person. I would probably make up an excuse not to talk to him because that's just really creepy and I would run away.

So the question is not "Why does God allow suffering on Earth?" but rather "Why doesn't God just wipe us all out?" Well because He wants to show His mercifulness and graciousness.

Okay, I should care to explain this. God does not want robots to "worship" Him because there would be no gratitude and there would be no real love. Siri does not really love you when you tell her to say that. You would certainly not feel love just as God would not be truly glorified if He made us His slaves.

I believe that God made Him and that Lucifer was imperfect because he is not God. Now, it is not God's fault because Adam and Eve were completely responsible for their actions. They had the choice.

Would it be wrong for me to say that God is His own thing entirely?

I agree that this is of first importance. Just to drive home the idea that God is merciful, we all fall short of God's law. In His infinite wisdom and love, He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to live and die on our behalf. And then to resurrect Himself to conquer death for us.

The sacrifice was done by humans, to God. In the case of Jesus, if we consider it a sacrifice (which implies that it was God's intention, raising other questions that we won't address right now), then it was a sacrifice from God, to God. I fail to see how this, in any way, makes sense or is necessary.

Hm. I'm saying those are two entirely different things. Knowing they would fail does not equal knowing they had no chance of not failing.

It does due to God's Omniscience. Believing they would fail is different. We used the term "knew". If He knew they would fail and he knows everything that happened, happens and will happen, then it stands to reason that they have no chance of succeeding (because omniscient god knows they will fail). And since God knows everything, he knows that too (so God ends up knowing that they have no chance of succeeding too). That's the logic behind this. Where do you disagree Kat? o.O

Hm. I'm saying those are two entirely different things. Knowing they would fail does not equal knowing they had no chance of not failing.

Adam and Eve chose to believe that created things could know more about a fellow created thing than the Creator of that thing.

Considering that the serpent preceded his correction by prompting Eve to repeat God's injunction and the reason for it, incongruity was painfully obvious and the serpent's aim.

Yes, it does. Any sort of reasonings about the fruit on the part of the serpent, Adam, and/or Eve does not invalidate Don't eat this fruit.

And, misleading is something that can only be judged after the fact, not before.

Now I'm just completely lost. .-. I still think you've missed my original point. I wasn't saying that people suffer only because of the choices of others, just that that particular reason of suffering is commonplace.

We can be glad that the story turned out to have happy ending, that good came of bad, but probably we would continue to allege that flunking out of school is not desirable.

Let's start off with telling you what I am here for. I am not here to debate all of your arguments and be right. (I admit that I was, but I've realized my duty.) Rather, I am presenting you the gospel and praying that the Holy Spirit will work in your hearts so you might accept it. I find truth, joy, peace, righteousness (not self-righteousness), and most importantly love in the gospel. To people without God, without the Holy Spirit in their hearts, the gospel makes no sense. God makes the first move. Not me. So I have decided to let the Holy Spirit do His work and I pray that some of you might accept the gospel. I've done my job here and presented the gospel, so if the Holy Spirit has indeed softened your heart to the gospel and it interests you in some way, you have plenty of options to learn more about God. I am more than happy to explain it to you on my page or feel free to research it yourself. I know there are some sources that oppose the gospel, but once you come to Christ you're immediately saved. Once you have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are guaranteed eternal life. But there are so many more facets to the gospel than just salvation. Please, I encourage you to talk about it with me. I just find no use in arguing because it won't bear any fruit. As long as I have told you the gospel, my job here is done. Even if your questions are meant to destroy the gospel, I would much rather you ask me in a more intimate setting where we can discuss your problem with God and religion. But just for anyone who is new to the thread and doesn't want to read back hella far to find where I talk about Christ, the gospel is this:
God is the holiest of holies. As such, he cannot accept anything short of perfection in following His laws. But humans are natural sinners. We have all done something to violate God's law. Even if it was just because you called someone a bad name for example. Because of this, we all deserve to die. Even more, none of us deserve to be in the presence of God. Nevertheless, He is not just this omnipotent, omniscient, cosmic judge. God loves us also. He sent His Son, Jesus Christ who is also God, to live among us. God, who was completely satisfied in His heavenly throne, chose to live in a broken world for our sake. Jesus not only lived a perfect life in His time here, but also He was tempted just as we are. Following His sinless and blameless life, He died a brutal and humiliating death as the ultimate sacrifice. All of our sins were transferred to this one man and God poured out all His wrath on Him. We were payed by His blood so we are no longer slaves to sin but we now belong to the kingdom of Heaven. We took Jesus's place as the rightful heir of God and we as Christians are basically brothers and sisters now. Three days after His death, Jesus resurrected. Jesus conquered death through the Resurrection and that's how our spirits have eternal life.
Like I said, there is so much more to the gospel than your salvation. Like how we are now the children of God and how we are His heirs to name a couple. God bless.

We have all done something to violate God's law. Even if it was just because you called someone a bad name for example.

Adam and Eve chose to believe that created things could know more about a fellow created thing than the Creator of that thing.

@EmperorPalpatine
They have not done anything to violate the law, so I assume they go to heaven if something bad were to happen to them. Wouldn't you agree?

@lozerfac3

Rather, I am presenting you the gospel and praying that the Holy Spirit will work in your hearts so you might accept it. I find truth, joy, peace, righteousness (not self-righteousness), and most importantly love in the gospel. To people without God, without the Holy Spirit in their hearts, the gospel makes no sense. God makes the first move. Not me. So I have decided to let the Holy Spirit do His work and I pray that some of you might accept the gospel. I've done my job here and presented the gospel, so if the Holy Spirit has indeed softened your heart to the gospel and it interests you in some way, you have plenty of options to learn more about God.

God is the holiest of holies. As such, he cannot accept anything short of perfection in following His laws. But humans are natural sinners. We have all done something to violate God's law. [...] none of us deserve to be in the presence of God. Nevertheless, He is not just this omnipotent, omniscient, cosmic judge. God loves us also. He sent His Son, Jesus Christ [...] He died a brutal and humiliating death as the ultimate sacrifice. All of our sins were transferred to this one man and God poured out all His wrath on Him. [...] Jesus conquered death through the Resurrection and that's how our spirits have eternal life.

I am not talking about 'belief,' nor am I turning "knowing they will fail" into "knowing they might fail". God knew their action. Fine. That is not some sort of predestination or destiny, where because God knows they will do something, they are bound to do that whether they want to or not. God knows it will happen because that is the choice that will be made by those making the choice.

And that 'something' is not Adam and Eve being incapable of making a decision.

Adam and Eve were presented with two sets of divergent information, and they went with one over another. Hence, they did choose.

1). I did no such thing.
2). I had no part in anything of what happened in Eden.

Not after the fact. Incongruity was the serpent's argument. 'That may have been what God said, but, really, He was lying to you.'

My reaction was that even if Adam and Eve had no choice but to accept the serpent's claims as fact, because the serpent did not contradict the command, therefore the command would still have remained as fact in Adam and Eve's minds. For Adam and Eve to lay aside the command, the serpent would have needed to contradict that such a command remained in force.

That was not the purpose of that metaphor.

Haha @lozerfac3, forgive our community, since most of us fall into the skeptics/atheists/agnostics category. We're all very used to a debating style, so if it seems heated, it's nothing personal!

Do stay around though! Remember, you aren't obliged to respond to every single point raised.

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Okay, let me pose a common question. Imagine a person who has for all his life committed terrible crimes that the law would come down harshly upon. Murder, rape, theft. Now, imagine that he knows of, but has never accepted Christ in his heart throughout his life. Yet in his last days, he genuinely repents and accepts Christ, not through fear of Hell, not through any pressure, not because of an impending sense of mortality. In fact, let's go with a cliched example - Hitler. If Hitler, mass murderer of millions and tyrant of Germany, had in his last few days, whilst held up in his bunker, accepted Christ - Will such a person still make it to Heaven?

Now compare this to a good person who for his entire life, not done harm. He donates not just money, but blood as well whenever he can. He never says a bad word about another. He is well loved by his friends and family. He volunteers at soup kitchens on Sundays instead of going to Church. But this good person chooses not to accept Christ, because he either a) Believes in another religion, or b) Decides of his own free will not to. Will such a person go to Hell?

How do we reconcile these two scenarios?

*I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise. Unless you mean this:

They did not have an obligation to know the consequences, God had the obligation to inform them of those consequences ONLY IF He really did want them to have a choice. You cannot make a choice without knowing the full extent of your actions. Like the analogy I've used before, it's like a parent asking their 5 year old kid whether it wants to leave the house and fend for itself. That's literally it. No other info got passed down. And that it is a choice a 5 year old cannot possibly do by itself

@FishPreferred

When you get all preachy like this, you inevitably push people away.

And that 'something' is not Adam and Eve being incapable of making a decision.

We've accepted that God knew Adam and Eve would fail His test. Which means He knew they would eat the Fruit. By extension, they had no chance of passing the test (of not eating the fruit). Since God knows everything, God knew this too. So we end up with God knowing they had no chance of succeeding. That is not the same as Adam and Eve being incapable of making a decision. That's just knowing they cannot make the 'right' decision. But being God, he could influence Adam and Eve differently. There are not only 2 scenarios on this, it's not just "either they would have the choice, or God would make mindless robots". In the first scenario, there are many ways to present things any way you wish. I've argued that if God really did want them to have a choice, He should have informed them of the consequences of their actions with anything more than a vague 'Death'.

@lozerfac3

They have not done anything to violate the law, so I assume they go to heaven if something bad were to happen to them. Wouldn't you agree?

Do you believe the bible/scripture is inerrant? Which version?

Do any biblical laws actually matter? Ten Commandments? The other hundreds in Leviticus and elsewhere?

The same can be said if I continued to argue, but I understand that. Thank you.

@nichodemus
Haha no worries. Because you asked and you're so welcoming, here is what the Scriptures says:

1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
(Matthew 20:1-16)

To answer your question, a man like Hitler is capable of salvation just like any of us are. I believe that to God, we are all as condemnable as Hitler. Even the "good" man. I put good in quotes because he is human, subject to our sinful nature but also under the grace and mercy of the God. You might find someone who is the nicest person you ever met, but that person may have lusted for something or thought about something wrong once in his/her life. Unless the person is Jesus, you can assume the person has sin in his heart. (But as Christians, we are not called to be judgmental, but to understand that each one of us needs Jesus. Everyone is on the same level of hopelessness.) As you can see in this parable, this man's generosity was offensive to the workers who worked more than the others, just as God's sacrifice is offensive to us. I hope you see the analogy. This doesn't mean that we have to work for our salvation. The point is that no matter how much sin we have committed and no matter how much sin we did not commit (because we have probably sinned more than once) or good we do, the gift of Jesus is still worth our lives. So don't let the gospel be offensive. It's a free gift for all.

@EmperorPalpatine

This adds the moral stance that killing infants is the only way to absolutely ensure that they get there, which is not sustainable.

I do not believe in this moral stance. I don't even support the killing of anyone. There is another way. (Hint: through Christ)

Do you believe the bible/scripture is inerrant? Which version?

I would say so. I guess any version that ultimately does not change the meaning of the original text. I haven't really looked into it.

Do any biblical laws actually matter? Ten Commandments? The other hundreds in Leviticus and elsewhere?

Of course they do. Please allow me to explain another time. It is getting late over here. But essentially, laws can be categorized by the covenants of God.

Not here it can't.

I definitely won't push people away from the argument. But I might as well be pushing them away from the truth if I stray from the message of the gospel.

Well, if you are going to just preach the gospel, I'm afraid that's where I loose interest. With due respect for your beliefs, but when I said I can't make sense of it, I don't mean I'm some kind of lost lamb searching for answers. I know very well why I don't believe in God (or any deity) and the flaws in the Bible are only part of it; I just like to debate them and hear what people have to say. It was interesting to read some of your arguments, but preaching ain't what I'm here for.

Now, if you have the patience for one more argument... why do you pray for us? I appreciate the intention, but you made it rather clear that it is futile, I would say. Supposedly, it is our own 'decision' to accept Jesus as our savior or not, which is the only point that really matters to God, right? Granting that and assuming that prayer does not influence other people's free will nor God's adamant position on salvation, why do you pray for people?