ForumsWEPRThe Religion Debate Thread

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,861 posts
Viceroy

So yeah, our threads on religion have long since died out, so I figured it would be time to start afresh here!

Do you believe God exists (I know almost all of you don't)? Do you feel religion is important today? Is it a force for good? Discuss everything related to that here!

I'm going to start the ball rolling:

We all know about the rise of ISIS and the terrible acts it perpetuates. Does that show that Islam and religion in general is an awful concept? Is it the people who twist it? Or is it fundamentally an evil force?

Roping in the WERP frequenters
@MageGrayWolf @Kasic @Hahiha @FishPreferred @Doombreed @09philj

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lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

I'm still here. I'm just thinking of something that will blow your mind haha

HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,645 posts
Grand Duke

@lozerfac3 It has been two days and my mind is still intact

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

Yeah its gonna be a while. Be assured. I will be back.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,645 posts
Grand Duke

@lozerfac3
There's one thing I wanted to show you, but forgot. It's a video by DarkMatter2525 on a believer's relationship with God. I know you're not keen about atheist youtubers, but he makes a point that I find compelling, and even though I am not now claiming that this is how it really is, I find that it would make sense.

Link to video

I also recently read an article that I think indirectly supports his point; it's about so-called bereavement hallucinations, hearing the voice of recently-deceased loved ones. I know it's not the same topic, but both are ultimately about perception of reality.

Link to article

I just wanted to have your opinion on that. You will most certainly disagree, but maybe it can spark a little discussion.

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

My first thought when watching the video was that he makes a very good point. I think that some theists, especially Christians, feel as if it is their job to bring people to God when it is actually God who is the one who brings those people to Him. They feel like they fail if people are not automatically converted. I definitely disagree that God is just a character we make up for ourselves, or myself at least. It might be the case for the Christians who take atheists' skepticism personally. They are probably not making up God for themselves but they are making up characteristics of God that are contrary to what God actually is.

HahiHa
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HahiHa
7,645 posts
Grand Duke

I think that some theists, especially Christians, feel as if it is their job to bring people to God when it is actually God who is the one who brings those people to Him.

Do you think the same way about missionaries?

I definitely disagree that God is just a character we make up for ourselves, or myself at least.

The question is, how can you be sure? When you communicate with your God (I assume you do), how can you be certain that it is not your brain reconstructing a being that you expect to be here, the same way that the brain reconstructs our whole environment based on external and, in the example of bereavement hallucinations, internal stimuli?
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

Do you think the same way about missionaries?
Of course. They are just following the commandments of God to share the gospel. God doesn't really need their help but they need his.

The question is, how can you be sure? When you communicate with your God (I assume you do), how can you be certain that it is not your brain reconstructing a being that you expect to be here, the same way that the brain reconstructs our whole environment based on external and, in the example of bereavement hallucinations, internal stimuli?
Sure, we pray to God, but the way He communicates to us it through the Bible. We can know his will by reading his word, learning about Him, and entering a relationship with Him. In short, we can be sure because it is written in the Bible.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,461 posts
Jester

In short, we can be sure because it is written in the Bible.

Which one? There are hundreds of recognized variations, and thousands if not millions of contradicting interpretations.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

Adding to that, isn't it circular reasoning? The Bible was written and composed by humans after all. Who's to say they weren't victims of hallucinations too?

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Archduke

Sure, we pray to God, but the way He communicates to us it through the Bible.
The Bible: A vague and heavily modified collection of texts written by several unknown authors before the birth of fact-checking which are even today the subject of considerable disagreement. I'd expect a supreme being of unlimited power to do a lot better.

We can know his will by reading his word, [...]
Uh, no. No you can't. There is no body of text that is definitively His Word.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

Which one? There are hundreds of recognized variations, and thousands if not millions of contradicting interpretations.
You would really want to go and read the original documents, but I have faith that the message of those variation holds the same as the originals. Unless there is a major version of the Bible that people study that carries a different message of the gospel than other, those contradictions are minor.

Adding to that, isn't it circular reasoning? The Bible was written and composed by humans after all. Who's to say they weren't victims of hallucinations too?
Oh I see. I haven't thought about that. Well, how can you explain how many different authors from very different backgrounds write about the same God?

The Bible: A vague and heavily modified collection of texts written by several unknown authors before the birth of fact-checking which are even today the subject of considerable disagreement. I'd expect a supreme being of unlimited power to do a lot better.
I believe that its vagueness is what makes it timeless and is what allows it to apply to every walk of life.

Uh, no. No you can't. There is no body of text that is definitively His Word.
Sure there is. The Bible in all its variations and flaws account for God's will.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Archduke

Well, how can you explain how many different authors from very different backgrounds write about the same God?
They don't. That's why they often can't agree on particulars.

I believe that its vagueness is what makes it timeless and is what allows it to apply to every walk of life.
1 In what sense does it apply to any walk of life?
2 It is nevertheless a heavily modified collection of texts written by several unknown authors before the birth of fact-checking which are even today the subject of considerable disagreement.

The Bible in all its variations and flaws account for God's will.
Including Exodus 21.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

They don't. That's why they often can't agree on particulars.
Particulars such as...

1 In what sense does it apply to any walk of life?
Anyone can read the book and experience God the way I do. They can experience redemption.

It is nevertheless a heavily modified collection of texts written by several unknown authors before the birth of fact-checking which are even today the subject of considerable disagreement.
I have faith that the Bible is inspired by God meaning that it was written exactly as was intended by God. Its different versions are subject to flaws and everything.

Including Exodus 21.
Mhm.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Grand Duke

Oh I see. I haven't thought about that. Well, how can you explain how many different authors from very different backgrounds write about the same God?

Oral tradition. The authors of the bible and apocrypha gospels simply wrote down their version of what was already a spreading faith by then - at that particular location and culture. I'm tempted to answer with a question: How can you explain how many different cultures from very different places and times wrote about very different gods?
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

Oral tradition. The authors of the bible and apocrypha gospels simply wrote down their version of what was already a spreading faith by then - at that particular location and culture.
Very well. I would like to point out the multitude of prophecies that were fulfilled through Jesus Christ. What can be made to explain this?

I'm tempted to answer with a question: How can you explain how many different cultures from very different places and times wrote about very different gods?
Deja vu
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