ForumsWEPRThe Religion Debate Thread

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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So yeah, our threads on religion have long since died out, so I figured it would be time to start afresh here!

Do you believe God exists (I know almost all of you don't)? Do you feel religion is important today? Is it a force for good? Discuss everything related to that here!

I'm going to start the ball rolling:

We all know about the rise of ISIS and the terrible acts it perpetuates. Does that show that Islam and religion in general is an awful concept? Is it the people who twist it? Or is it fundamentally an evil force?

Roping in the WERP frequenters
@MageGrayWolf @Kasic @Hahiha @FishPreferred @Doombreed @09philj

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EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Scribe

Isn't the Hebrew text the original though?

Possibly the original language, not the original text. There are no original documents available. The oldest fragments are from around 600B.C. The oldest known Hebrew inscriptions in general are only from around 1000B.C. The oldest Torah scroll is from around 1200A.D.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
622 posts
Shepherd

I'm sure it was copied very well throughout time, so the computer program would still be processing the same phrases as the original text.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Archduke

I was referring to Jewish traditions. But I admit to having limited knowledge on that too.
Well, in either case, what reason have you to conclude that the customs described are the customs of the time, aside from some guy on the internet saying so?

Isn't the Hebrew text the original though?
Wasn't Moses raised Egyptian?

In verse 44, it says "everything written about [Jesus] in the Law of Moses". The 10 commandments doesn't say anything about Jesus, so when Jesus says Law of Moses, He is including the rest of the Pentateuch. We also know that Moses wrote the Law of Moses.
1 Luke, or whoever actually wrote that scripture, also wouldn't know who wrote the Pentateuch. At best he could only speculate.
2 There is absolutely nothing written about Jesus in the Pentateuch. For that, you'd have to rely on a bunch more vague and ill-fitting quotations.
3 It isn't "everything written about Jesus"; if anything, it's "everything written about God", which most certainly includes the commandments. Hence "in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms" refers to the ten commandments, the words of the prophets, ... and the psalms.
4 If "Law of __" refers not to any law, but to a story, the "Law of Moses" must therefore mean the story of Moses.

I'm sure it was copied very well throughout time, so the computer program would still be processing the same phrases as the original text.
I figured you would be. The problem is that a) slaves in Egypt couldn't write in any language, b) Egyptians wouldn't have taught Hebrew, and c) the Quran also contains the stories from the Pentateuch, and they are notably different.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

Wasn't Moses raised Egyptian?
Yeah so? He still wrote in the language of his people.

It isn't "everything written about Jesus"; if anything, it's "everything written about God", which most certainly includes the commandments. Hence "in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms" refers to the ten commandments, the words of the prophets, ... and the psalms.
Okay but why would Jesus exclude the Pentateuch from the Old Testament and only include the 10 commandments?

If "Law of __" refers not to any law, but to a story, the "Law of Moses" must therefore mean the story of Moses.
Which could mean to say it was written by Moses.

I figured you would be. The problem is that a) slaves in Egypt couldn't write in any language, b) Egyptians wouldn't have taught Hebrew, and c) the Quran also contains the stories from the Pentateuch, and they are notably different.
Haha I'm sure they can copy down symbols though. They probably counted all the characters too to make sure it was exactly the same as the original. I'm also sure they learned how to read and write to understand the 10 commandments. Plus, don't Muslims claim that the Bible is super unreliable though? Of course it would be different.
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Yeah so? He still wrote in the language of his people.

This means he wrote a story about how God confused people's languages so that they could not communicate, in a language that was not native to him.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

He was basically raised by his Hebrew mom though. Pharaoh's daughter chose her to take care of Moses.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Archduke

Yeah so? He still wrote in the language of his people.
Why? How? What justification do you have for this claim?

Okay but why would Jesus exclude the Pentateuch from the Old Testament and only include the 10 commandments?
Because that was supposedly the most important part of it.

Which could mean to say it was written by Moses.
http://i.imgur.com/rJGj2.png

And the story of Joshua could mean "written by Joshua", and the story of Abraham and Isaac could mean "cowritten by Abraham and Isaac", and the story of Noah could mean "written by Noah", and the story of Lazarus could mean "written by Lazarus" .... Also, as this is part 4, I presume you've seen part 1. Please refer back to that for why this line of reasoning won't get you anywhere.

Haha I'm sure they can copy down symbols though. They probably counted all the characters too to make sure it was exactly the same as the original.
. . . What original? I'm saying that Hebrew would not have existed as a written language independent of Egyptian during his lifetime, nor would any slave in Egypt be capable of writing.

I'm also sure they learned how to read and write to understand the 10 commandments.
Learned from whom?

Plus, don't Muslims claim that the Bible is super unreliable though? Of course it would be different.
So we're agreed that it wasn't necessarily copied very well throughout time, right?

He was basically raised by his Hebrew mom though. Pharaoh's daughter chose her to take care of Moses.
No, his mother nursed him because the pharaoh's daughter, who raised him, couldn't lactate yet.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

Because that was supposedly the most important part of it.
Fair point. Wikipedia While the internet disagrees that Moses wrote the book, it agrees with the fact that the Law of Moses refers the Pentateuch and that the Bible (and not just Christians) claims that Moses wrote it. Because I agree with the Bible, I believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

Why? How? What justification do you have for this claim?
He would want the Israelites to understand the laws of God.

Luke, or whoever actually wrote that scripture, also wouldn't know who wrote the Pentateuch. At best he could only speculate.
He looked at the rest of the looked at the Old Testament and saw that they claimed that Moses wrote it.

. . . What original? I'm saying that Hebrew would not have existed as a written language independent of Egyptian during his lifetime, nor would any slave in Egypt be capable of writing.
I know slavery was much more humane back then over there. They probably knew how to read and stuff. Why wouldn't have Hebrew existed as a written language?

Learned from whom?
Maybe not in order to understand the 10 Commandments but they already knew.

So we're agreed that it wasn't necessarily copied very well throughout time, right?
I'm not Muslim so I don't agree.

No, his mother nursed him because the pharaoh's daughter, who raised him, couldn't lactate yet.
He probably had lots of exposure to Hebrew still.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

Oops. I forgot the link. Wikipedia

catlover192
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catlover192
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Jester

im a jew(somehow),i hate god,i dont think religion is important,it only makes war.Thank you,goodbye.

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

Me too. Except I'm not a jew and I love God. I don't consider myself very "religious".

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Archduke

While the internet disagrees that Moses wrote the book, it agrees with the fact that the Law of Moses refers the Pentateuch and that the Bible (and not just Christians) claims that Moses wrote it.
Etymological fallacy. The fact that the phrase is currently used in reference to it does not make all usage of the phrase in reference to it. If we examine the article, we find this:
"The Law of Moses or Torah of Moses [...] is a biblical term first found in the Book of Joshua 8:31-32"

That passage reads:
"30Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the Lord, the God of Israel, 31just as Moses the servant of the Lord had commanded the Israelites, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, “an altar of unhewn stones, on which no iron tool has been used”; and they offered on it burnt offerings to the Lord, and sacrificed offerings of well-being. 32And there, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written."

Joshua (or whoever actually wrote the book of Joshua) makes a clear distinction between the Law of Moses and the book about it. The book has no stated author, whereas the law is attributed to Moses.

He would want the Israelites to understand the laws of God.
Well, I suppose that's good enough for why. What about How?

He looked at the rest of the looked at the Old Testament and saw that they claimed that Moses wrote it.
Well, they didn't, so he speculated.

I know slavery was much more humane back then over there. They probably knew how to read and stuff. Why wouldn't have Hebrew existed as a written language?
Because reading/writing was a rare and highly valued skill to the Egyptians. If any common slave could do it, the scribes would be out of a job.

I'm not Muslim so I don't agree.
Allow me to summarize:
1 The Bible contains a copy of the Pentateuch.
2 The Quran contains a copy of the Pentateuch.
3 The Bible's Pentateuch is not the same as the Quran's Pentateuch.
4 These Pentateuchs cannot both be the same as the original Pentateuch.
5 Therefore, the Pentateuch was not copied very well throughout time.

He probably had lots of exposure to Hebrew still.
Yeah, as it was spoken. If he learned to write at all, it was at an Egyptian school with an Egyptian teacher where he learned and practiced writing in Egyptian.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

That's a very good point. The best evidence that I can come up with is Luke 24:44. I believe that when Jesus says the Law of Moses he means the first 5 books of the Bible. Even if Moses wasn't the one who wrote it, the person (people) who did was inspired by God in the same way every other biblical author was.

Well, I suppose that's good enough for why. What about How?
Using Hebrew script. I can't explain how they learned how to read and write, but I am putting my faith in that they did. Even if it was originally in Egyptian, the computer program that processed the Hebrew text isn't the deciding factor of whether or not Moses was the author or not.

It might seem like I'm completely ignoring the evidence, but even all those theories about separate authors of the Pentateuch are just theories as well. I can't really argue against it because I'm not an expert on archeology and history. I still have enough room to put my faith in God all things considered.

Allow me to summarize:
1 The Bible contains a copy of the Pentateuch.
2 The Quran contains a copy of the Pentateuch.
3 The Bible's Pentateuch is not the same as the Quran's Pentateuch.
4 These Pentateuchs cannot both be the same as the original Pentateuch.
5 Therefore, the Pentateuch was not copied very well throughout time.
The Quran contains a modified copy of the Pentateuch because they believe that the Bible's version (and the Torah) has been corrupted by men. They changed it after the fact.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Shepherd

Did I say something? Lol

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Scribe

While we wait for Fish, these were the problems deflected by the sentiment that all biblical variations are God's Will. Since that's out, they're unanswered.

"The Bible: A vague and heavily modified collection of texts written by several unknown authors before the birth of fact-checking which are even today the subject of considerable disagreement. I'd expect a supreme being of unlimited power to do a lot better."

"There is no body of text that is definitively His Word."

"Which one? There are hundreds of recognized variations, and thousands if not millions of contradicting interpretations."

"Yes, here we are again. A scumbag deity who only saves His very own chosen people under very specific conditions, and is completely oblivious to everyone else."

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