Forums → WEPR → The God Debates
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There have been so many interesting topics and conversations in these threads about God, but they end up just going in circles - mostly because those on opposite sides tend to talk past one another. So, to facilitate this excellent dialogue while giving a bit more guidance to the conversation, I (per request) will moderate some discussion. First, some rules:
- Because most of us are familiar with a western notion of God, our conversation will be limited to this kind of God, unless otherwise specified.
- We need to separate the philosophy from the religion. Whatever crimes or irrationality you think a particular group is guilty of doesn't matter here. We're only concerned with arguments.
- Keep to the conversation at hand, and please just ignore those that clearly haven't read the topic introduction.
Ideally, this topic will generate discussion in a particular area until whoever is moderating the discussion feels like the dialogue has run its course. At that point, a new topic will be introduced.
So, first topic:
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth? And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
- 104 Replies
d341d don't turn this into an attack on Samy. It is merely a friendly debate.
He started it by attempting to insult my wisdom. Now could you argue my points that I brought up yesterday instead of attempting to insult my conduct?
I am not insulting your conduct. I don't see how you derived that from my statement.
anyways, all three of us have stated our views. They may not align in th same path which is fine. But I think it's best we let the voice of others be heard before we continue any further.
Or you could read what I wrote yesterday then argue against it, like you do in a debate, instead of giving half-answers like saying I have a heard heart. If I must re post them, then so be it, but I would prefer you look them up yourself.
He started it by attempting to insult my wisdom. Now could you argue my points that I brought up yesterday instead of attempting to insult my conduct?
Look, wisdom may be expression of truth, but just because you believe in something with evidence doesn't make you any wiser than the rest of us mere mortals, and from what I could see, you insulted his plead for you to go about this with an open mind first and thus caused that asinine little firestorm there.
As for your conduct, this is not how people should behave, if you want to argue the benefits and philosophy regarding atheism, don't you think people would be more open from simple politeness and courtesy?
Lets get this back on topic, I play judge and executioner to philosophical arguments at school daily and don't want to start my summer off with more of my daily duties.
He started it by attempting to insult my wisdom. Now could you argue my points that I brought up yesterday instead of attempting to insult my conduct?
Per chance it was you maliciously attacking what I believe; or maybe it was your false assertion and misunderstanding of your own wisdom?
The wisdom I was speaking of was in regards to God and Christianity (notice context he's quite the guy) however I believe that faith (not necessarily in a god but still faith) is an integral part to wisdom.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
I love ancient Greek mythology and culture. I find it laughable that the Jewish people had done nothing but right this book and the Greek had made hundreds of useful inventions and other works of knowledge. This seems to state that the Jews are better, but in reality the Greek were superior...
What? Where in the world did you come up with this verse stating Jews are superior to gentiles (not just Greeks mind you)? Clearly Paul is denouncing all those who don't believe in God because they haven't "seen".
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Even funnier. " Well, so what if you Greek guys have all that technology? WE HAVE A DEAD GUY ON THE CROSS! What now?"
Never better than when someones reaction confirms the verse. Again Paul is calling out both Jews and gentiles on the same terms; in both cases Jesus was not excepted.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
If god was omniscient and omnipotent he would have no weakness and no foolishness, so this is suggesting that he is neither. Now I will only comment on the extremely messed up ones... Just kind of got into it there.
The verse is showing that in all circumstances God is stronger and wiser than man. It's a comparison and should be taken as no more than that.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
I may look stupid, but I have a book that I say will make you live for ever, so listen to me!
Actually Paul was one of the most intellectual men of the first century; he said this to sharpen his previous point that the glory should be God's and no one should say we follow Paul, or we follow Apollos. All should say we follow Jesus.
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Don't think about it to much, or you'll poke holes in my book...
Why would I trust in the wisdom of man if I have available to me the wisdom of God?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
This one truly is pathetic. "Don't kill a Christian, or you will die!". Do I even have to explain how this is pure fairy tail?
Tale not tail.
It's referencing the Old Testament to show the importance of standing as one body undivided.
Context: Context is our friend and isn't the cause for demonetization in the church; however, understanding of he bible is. the bible is an absolute truth but as humans we do not have absolute knowledge and cannot completely grasp it.
Demonetization: Is wrong and stupid and is actually attacked in 1 Corinthians 1-3.
One of the main pro-life arguments was religion.
So your not addressing the fact that stem cell researched is actually better off because of the pushes made by pro-life advocates? Or the fact that there are plenty of secular arguments for life?
I would consider anyone who follows the Christian Bible to be religious, thus that is my bases for a religious person.
What? Your not even on the same topic I was.
True, most modern Christians follow the ten commandments and whatever the preachers say and call themselves Christian, but the Bible basically says to kill anyone who doesn't/does something, as well as providing an outdated set of guidelines. Example? Sex. The Bible has killed numerous people for having sex and even states that Christians are supposed to stone those who do. Back a few hundred years ago that was good advice, as it prevented STDs and unplanned births, but in modern day were there is ample protection then it is fine and not morally wrong at all.
Lawl. For real you even try to throw in an insult in this wall of text? Also you can't have a moral code as your resistance is subjective so nice try.
True, but it has held back just as many and not more. I will go further in the past to point out that people were KILLED for believing in the scientific fact that males had an even number of ribs, since Christians believed Eve was born of Adam's ribs and that they were molded after Adam thus are missing a rib. There are many more examples, ask if you wish for them.
Armenian genocide ring a bell? 1.5 million Armenian Christians were killed for what they believe. Misguided men will do misguided things and it makes no sense to carry the blame over to there children or others who have similar beliefs.
Why would I trust in the wisdom of man if I have available to me the wisdom of God?
Unless I am mistaken the Bible was written by man, and they used their interpretations of what God said to write it. So in that sense you do not have the wisdom of God available.
Unless I am mistaken the Bible was written by man, and they used their interpretations of what God said to write it. So in that sense you do not have the wisdom of God available.
Aye however;
Wisdom From the Spirit
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]â" 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.
And that would be how I know the wisdom of God.
All I know is that the bible is filled with loopholes and immense oxymorons. It was once 'God's wrath, worship or die' and then magically changed to be 'God is a lovely guy and you should like him.'
Adam and Eve produced only two children, Abel and Cain... how do you suppose the world was populated, if out of the four, only Eve was able to bear children?
Religion, in any shape and form, is a sham.
Chose your own beliefs and stick to those, rather than mindlessly following the rules and regulations of some age old men who only wanted to control you and thus used the unknown and most feared to do it.
i dont think that jesus and god really did all of those magic things but more likely there was just a holy man named jesus that was so holy and mighty that people started to make up stories about him
everyone knows how gullible people were back then
i dont think that jesus and god really did all of those magic things but more likely there was just a holy man named jesus that was so holy and mighty that people started to make up stories about him
Care to elaborate?
All I know is that the bible is filled with loopholes and immense oxymorons. It was once 'God's wrath, worship or die' and then magically changed to be 'God is a lovely guy and you should like him.'
Yes because clearly the son of God dying for man's sin would have no ramifications; at all.
[/sarcasm]
Adam and Eve produced only two children, Abel and Cain... how do you suppose the world was populated, if out of the four, only Eve was able to bear children?
Common misconception Adam and Eve would have had around 7 children some of them female. There's also the thought that Adam and Eve could have symbolized the evolutionary creation of man or a group of the original humans. No matter what they had more than two children.
Chose your own beliefs and stick to those, rather than mindlessly following the rules and regulations of some age old men who only wanted to control you and thus used the unknown and most feared to do it.
I've chosen my own beliefs and I stick too them. No old man controls my mind only I do.
@Nater:what possum said. And Do you have anything to back up your statement? People "back then" were just as intelligent as we are now they just hadn't had the time to develop the technology we had.
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]â�" 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.
This sounds very much like subconscious thought. When our conscious and subconscious communicate it can seem very much like the information is coming from an external source. The people from the time this was written wouldn't have the level of knowledge on how the human brain works that we do today. So for them it would have stood to reason that if it seems to be coming from an external source, then it is. They then attributed this to it being spirit/God.
Common misconception Adam and Eve would have had around 7 children some of them female.
Where does it say she had around that many?
That is why there are so many versions of Christianity. That and the verse "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?'" How can you know what is correct if much of it can be false? Using context, I could say that Christians never really come back from the dead but "Live forever" in the memory of those they helped.
I just scanned over your reference material from the web site [answering-christianity.com]. If this is your only source material its no wonder you're suffering from a stunted and warped view of Christianity as a whole.
The Apostle Paul, "says that all of the Bible is God breathed". The argument from the [about.com] web site is that the "Bible" didn't even exist.
That's a lame and pitiful excuse for a totally wrong statement since every 10 year old knows that the Torah was written on scrolls. Furthermore, the Septuagint was made for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt in the 2nd-3rd centuries BC.
Paul, before his conversion was Saul of Tarsus
He was born to Orthodox Jewish/Pharisees parents in a Roman district, thus a Roman Citizen.
His Hebrew name was Saul(meaning, desired/asked for) and his Roman name was Paulus,(meaning, small). Other resources I've read argue about Paul's heritage and his father being a true descendant of Benjamin. That's understandable because scholars aren't sure of the date of his birth either.
The point I hope to make is that the early Christian Church was hunted by the Romans and hated by the Hebrews and Rome. Rome hadn't embraced the Christian faith and the popular faith of that era was pagan.
When Hebrews began intermarrying with pagans, different forms of philosophy and religious thought sprang up, Essene, Hellenistic and Stoic are a few I know something about.
Hellenistic society has its roots in the Classical Greek thought, influence and customs. George T. Montague had this to say concerning Paul's use of Classical Greek and his possible exposure to the university or philosophical schools in his training: "His mastery of the Greek literary technique of the diatribe and his occasional citation of Greek authors(Aratus in Acts 17:18 Meander in 1Corinthians 15:23; Epimenides in Titus 1:1)are considered by some as evidence that he frequented the Hellenistic schools of rhetoric. Information obtained from The American Journal of Biblical Theology
This resource also shows clear definitions of Stoicism, Judaism, Essenes, etc.
Why do you think modern archaeologists are finding the scrolls of the Essene's in jars, hidden in caves? I don't understand much about the Essenes except that they are a branch of Judaism and lived like monks.
When reading about the Sadducees from this web site, the similarities of modern political pressures still, to this day, influence some church rules and functions. Even sermons are to some degree influenced by popular political thought.
Your opinion of Christians never dying, but living forever is false.
I was alone with my mom when she passed and I knew the second her spirit left her body because when she brushed past me, in a doorway, I felt a slight breeze and my hair moved. No doors or windows were open and I ran to the sliding glass door to open it while saying goodbye to my mother. It was the most beautiful experience other than my wedding day and the birth of my son, I've ever had.
These are experiences of a deeply personal nature than defy nature. That's why they're called mysteries.
I see you have gotten the sexist "Men are better than women" message that is in many parts of the Bible. You could easily have achieved the same effect threw a different outlet, even a sport would could have done the same. This in no way proves any deity but is a peer pressure "Join us, we are happy" band wagon propaganda kind of thing I dislike(some may even call it brain washing...)
Obviously, you didn't read the entire comment I wrote. I wasn't influenced by peers of any sort; I was not attending any church services. I was totally alone when I had my Epiphany. Your theory fails, miserably.
I think the murder of millions, from both hate crimes and wars, as well as religious walls trying to block off stem cell research, cloning, and other human based experiments allows me to be some what hostile of religion.
Civilization went through a lot of changes between the Old and New Testament days.
GOD demanded obedience in the Old Testament era and His ways and methods do seem harsh to us now. Conversely, by the time the Hebrews were demanding a king instead of judges on earth, to serve, his name was Saul and he wasn't a very pleasant person at all. David replaced him and he still made mistakes.
God's punishments were "swift and severe" and very shocking and cruel to today's standards. GOD wasn't forming a democracy in the wilderness with the Children of Abraham. He was forming His Army!
How does an army learn to kill? By being killed. How do a group of people gain wisdom? By learning humility and obedience.
Politics has much more influence over which scientific research is conducted or even mentioned to the public. There are many religious sects that wave the banner of Christ who are neither Christ filled or Christ believing but rather are extremists and pervert the Word of God to suit there agendas.
Personally, I'm all for stem-cell research, that I disagree with you because I don't think research was hindered at all but rather hushed up. I don't believe in gaining the cells from aborted fetus'. There are other, non-evasive, more humane ways of gaining this material.
Okay I might as well touch on a few things before the topic get's routed to a change for being away from the OP (To bad it was getting to be more engaging off topic then on.)
I don't think it was very engaging at all. It lacked reputable links to factual knowledge of Biblical doctrine. It was baseless rantings of an immature child.
Seeing as faith is belief without proof, how can that possibly go hand and hand with wisdom? Yes faith can give the illusion of deep understanding, but without something definitive to back it up (evidence) all it is is an assertion being held as true. If you do have something definitive backing up your belief, it has a hard time being called faith.
My change of mind and heart was complete. I wasn't chanting the same prayer 12 times a day for a year before I changed. GOD excepted me as I was, a broken, bitter, b**** of a self-ceneterd person that barely liked herself. I didn't know that at the time but this is how drastically I've changed. No one can fake this. I'm not pretended to know GOD and His love for me, I just instinctively know. How can you measure or test a mothers/fathers instincts about their beloved children. How can a mother, at a busy airport hear the cry of a child and know in their gut(which is the location of the Biblical heart), that is their child in distress? What method of science can measure the feeling of the hairs going up on the back of the neck when the individual doesn't even "feel" cold but instead, instinctively senses danger?
I'm not posing these questions as a hedge or side-step but I'm trying to illustrate to you the absolute nonsense of how your questions and accusations sound to me.
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