Forums → WEPR → The God Debates
| 104 | 13864 |
There have been so many interesting topics and conversations in these threads about God, but they end up just going in circles - mostly because those on opposite sides tend to talk past one another. So, to facilitate this excellent dialogue while giving a bit more guidance to the conversation, I (per request) will moderate some discussion. First, some rules:
- Because most of us are familiar with a western notion of God, our conversation will be limited to this kind of God, unless otherwise specified.
- We need to separate the philosophy from the religion. Whatever crimes or irrationality you think a particular group is guilty of doesn't matter here. We're only concerned with arguments.
- Keep to the conversation at hand, and please just ignore those that clearly haven't read the topic introduction.
Ideally, this topic will generate discussion in a particular area until whoever is moderating the discussion feels like the dialogue has run its course. At that point, a new topic will be introduced.
So, first topic:
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth? And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
- 104 Replies
This has gotten completely off topic. The only theistic considerations in this discussion should be from a traditional western perspective - this does not imply a Christian perspective. Keep to the discussion as presented in the OP, or we'll have to move on to a different topic.
The western civilizations have mostly Christianity and its branches, what is the problem? We are naturally arguing each other points. We are fine on topic;
The only theistic considerations in this discussion should be from a traditional western perspective - this does not imply a Christian perspective.
Last I checked the western theistic perspective was Christianity for the most part.
While I can't speak as what you would refer to as a "true" Christian, keep in mind I did grow up with a Catholic mother who did expose me to many different denominations of Christianity. So I would say I do have quite a bit of inside personal experience with the religion.
"Sigh" would have been useful information before my rant you know. At the same time I have many atheistic friends and yet I don't have a full understanding of Christianity. Basically my point was that it's nearly impossible for us to empathize with one another or to "see the others side". Religion isn't a political ideology (or it shouldn't be) or a scientific theory it's a way of life. If we were both Christians or both religious than we would be able to see eye to eye better; unfortunatly were not which leads to to many assumptions and confusions between us.
Wonder if there's anyway for us to truly understand each other better without changing beliefs.
But I was a Christian, and why would your god discriminate age?
Not age but experience and time spent in the bible, in prayer, and in a community.
Finally, people do not have to be in something to understand it. I can look at microbes and understand them without being one. True, I could understand them better if I was one, but by studying them I can learn enough.
Quite a false analogy. Human beings and not things that can be studied or fully understood. Microbes can be understood because they don't think they do what they are programed to do and nothing more. You can't "study" someone and be able to know for sure what their next action will be or how they will react in a situation.
This has gotten completely off topic. The only theistic considerations in this discussion should be from a traditional western perspective - this does not imply a Christian perspective. Keep to the discussion as presented in the OP, or we'll have to move on to a different topic.
Then why was the other thread locked? As pi pointed out we're following the flow of the flow of the debate and discussing the religion we all know the best. If this thread isn't for that purpose I suppose we're just going to have to start a new one for that purpose.
By the way we're happier =P
As pi pointed out we're following the flow of the flow of the debate and discussing the religion we all know the best.
[quote=OP]
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth? And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?[/quote]
I believe we were supposed to be discussing this, not discussing whether or not we have the ability to argue against a god we are not even supposed to be arguing about.
I believe we were supposed to be discussing this, not discussing whether or not we have the ability to argue against a god we are not even supposed to be arguing about.
Well then I may have to make a thread for the specific purpose of not having a specific topic. There's no point of having a strong central focus if you can't use it to branch out to other related topics.
Quite a false analogy. Human beings and not things that can be studied or fully understood. Microbes can be understood because they don't think they do what they are programed to do and nothing more. You can't "study" someone and be able to know for sure what their next action will be or how they will react in a situation.
We can quite easily. I will give an example of the fake but realistic Sherlock Holmes. He is able to tell what Watson is thinking by his actions, in a logical fashion. By studding a human and his habits you can think what they have done, will do, etc. Studying is good for everything.
We can quite easily. I will give an example of the fake but realistic Sherlock Holmes. He is able to tell what Watson is thinking by his actions, in a logical fashion. By studding a human and his habits you can think what they have done, will do, etc. Studying is good for everything.
I disagree. Humanity isn't something we can understand or quantify; we may be able to predict, to extinct, criminal activities but we will never be able to know all the circumstances that led up to them being a criminal in the first place. You can't make generalizations about anyone; not all atheists feel like something is missing, not all Christians vote conservative, all those who brake the law do it for selfish reasons.
I am not saying that you can get the generality of the species from one, that is the misunderstanding. I am saying if you research a specific human than you can know what that specific human is to do, what he has done, and what he will do.
The thing I was specifically mentioning had him speaking to Watson, who had done several activities that led Holmes to believe he was thinking of war and the philosophy behind it.
I am not saying that you can get the generality of the species from one, that is the misunderstanding. I am saying if you research a specific human than you can know what that specific human is to do, what he has done, and what he will do.
Ah, my fault then. Still it isn't so much research as develop a relationship with in order to understand. It's very hard to "study" a human being.
However we are off topic at this point and since this thread is being moded (?) I may make a new one.
A mere human like you could never know what another human is going to do. Such is the beauty of free will.
A mere human like you could never know what another human is going to do. Such is the beauty of free will.
Did I not just say you could? You just have to study them and there habits.
A real life example. If you have a best friend who comes over at 3:00 every morning you could easily predict he would come today, unless more observation lead you to believe that he won't come, such as if you observe that his parents died, and you know he liked his parents, then it would be logical to assume he would be doing something with his parents funeral.
A real life example. If you have a best friend who comes over at 3:00 every morning you could easily predict he would come today, unless more observation lead you to believe that he won't come, such as if you observe that his parents died, and you know he liked his parents, then it would be logical to assume he would be doing something with his parents funeral.
You forget about free will. Your friend could simply just decide he doesn't want to come over today.
You forget about free will. Your friend could simply just decide he doesn't want to come over today.
You should really look into that lead brain... If someone has a habit such as his that they come over every day they would likely need something else to make them not come.
You should really look into that lead brain... If someone has a habit such as his that they come over every day they would likely need something else to make them not come.
Or not. They could just decide they DIDN'T WANT TO GO! It's really not that difficult. Like when kids cut school for the first time for no reason but that they didn't want to go to school that day. It happens all the time. You can't predict what someone will do. You can say what they are most likely to do, but you can't say for certain.
Or not. They could just decide they DIDN'T WANT TO GO! It's really not that difficult. Like when kids cut school for the first time for no reason but that they didn't want to go to school that day. It happens all the time. You can't predict what someone will do. You can say what they are most likely to do, but you can't say for certain.
I subscribe to the theory that a given person will do the same thing in a given situation. But, of course, that is a totally different thread that has absolutely nothing to do with religion...
You must be logged in to post a reply!