Forums → WEPR → Does free will exist?

I decided to spare myself and not read a majority of the posts. The couple I did read were..decent? Sure. So here is my take.

Of course humans have free will. But not all demonstrate it. Far too many people are attached to pre-conceived ideas and social stigmas. For those people, not so much free will. They like to please others and do expected things, and expect the same form others. The same people also jump off of a cliff if Ryan Seacrest told them to.

However, others are different. They do what they enjoy and wear what they like. They may be seen to others as the afore mentioned stigmas, or just kinda different. Examples of these people are artists and indy musicians. Just to give you people and idea of what I mean.

This may sound a bit too simple, but doesn't our very ability to comprehend the concept of free will serve as evidence of its existence? If free will truly did not exist, we would have no idea what it means.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that world-shaking events like the foundation of America, the civil rights movement, and the accomplishments of figures like Joan of Arc, George Washington, and Martin Luther King Jr. were simply the product of a string of predetermined events or chemical reactions and not supreme willpower.

Further evidence I see of free will is that humans' reactions to influences often oppose those influences. For example, many choose not to buy a particular brand of clothing though they see celebrities advertising it and others wearing it. Also consider that even if someone is furious with another person and has his system flooded with aggression hormones, he can still choose not to act on that anger. Go and observe such opposing reactions in others and yourself, and you are bound to find one.

I strongly agree that there are influences and instincts acting on us, but if there were no free will, would humans not be at the mercy of any and all external stimuli? We would be just like a water droplet following the path of least resistance. I think we're more than that. I feel, and know that I'm more than that. Also, think about all the other concepts that are rendered meaningless if free will does not exist. There would no longer be any room for heroism, courage, or hope. They would all be meaningless. What a bleak outlook. By definition an act of heroism is an act that is performed despite strong influences of fear and sometimes even overrides the very instinct of survival. If it's not free will to risk death for, say, a chance to save another person, I don't know what is. That kind of act defies all deterministic logic or Darwinian natural behavior.

Think about this as well: I had to exercise free will to post in this thread. Nobody twisted my arm to make me do it. I saw a dozen other interesting threads but chose not to post in them today. You'd have to have some kind of will to read this if you've gotten this far in such a long post. And don't tell me that all the acts of creativity the human race has seen, all the complex novels that have been written, the ability we have for cognitive thought, and all the wondrous machines we've created were just a product of predetermined interactions of impersonal forces. I don't buy it. I have a will NOT to accept the argument that I have no will. See? Free will creates evidence of itself everywhere, and that evidence is overwhelming.

yeah

i dont get at all what fride is tryin to say on pg 3, he just wierd O.o

Not all of our actions depend on primal instincts, our mind takes a large portion on that part as well.

Have you ever considered when a baby is born, from that minute on they are taking that experience in and using what their body prepared them to learn from the experience, and thus shaping the mind? Our minds derive from these basic bodily functions, our bodies start with one cell, that cell from complexes of matter, and human life from bacteria in the process of evolution.

free will dooessnt exist lol!@!!!! becouse there wot be no laws if there were free will on our side think ppl but we do have a lttle free will like hanging out iwht out mates and stuff etc but its good that theres laws

Dude, free will is the very reason we have laws. Laws are meant to check free-will decisions that could be harmful to society. Still, people can choose to follow or break the laws if they wish. A rule written on a piece of paper will never stop someone from doing something. Anyway, if there were no free will there would also be no need for laws, or law enforcement, because everyone would do as they're told, or just follow what their external stimuli tell them. In fact, now that I think about it, giving a command to another person is an expression of free will too. When you give someone a command, you are telling them your will, "willing" them to do something.

Well, before I start an argument, tell me, Bloody_wolf, what is your definition of free will.

Simple: the ability to choose. I guess I should include Webster's definition for good measure --- free will: 1. the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law 2. the ability to choose between alternatives so that the choice and action are to an extent creatively determined by the conscious subject.

Ever watched the Matrix? The Architect, a program that generates the Matrix, complained to Neo that everything in the Matrix would be a perfect example of order and predictability, but there's a problem. That problem is choice. I think the human vs. computer analogy works well here. Computer programming has many diverging paths, but the path a computer takes is based on instruction, not reasoning. However, if a human is presented with multiple paths, he can choose whichever he pleases. Not only that, but he can reason out which path is the BEST. And, if he so wished, he could even choose the most foolish path to take, against all logic. If humans were mere meat-computers, would we not be completely driven by logic, with no choice but to take the most logical action at all times? No, that's the beauty of free will. Humans can be stupid if they want to! They can also do things that logic would say are foolhardy, but it becomes later apparent that those decisions were beneficial. Also, haven't you been told all your life about all the important DECISIONS you're going to make, like where to work, who to marry, etc.? By its currently accepted definition, any decision is an act of free will. Another thing to consider is that free will cannot be quantified for the reason that it is a QUALITY, and inherent characteristic of our being. It can, however, be defined, as seen above. It is an intensive human property, not an extensive one. And hey, if Webster's Dictionary believes in free will, why argue? XD

Well, I [i]believe[i] people are 100% predictable if we had the resources (not only money, but also information) we can predict the move of every person, including their thoughts. Remember, we are only matter, and our species are jsut a more complex version of any other animal with rational thinking. We were created by cause and effect, and we could use that to find the path from the beginning of the universe, to creation of mankind, to even you, bloody.

Btw, if you want to know what I think about judement, then look on page 2.

Eshploded, thinks along the same lines I do. Free will is an illusion. We think we are making choices, when in fact everything can be deduced to a cause.

Then on the flip side we could take a religious stance. If God is all-knowing, then he knows everything we will ever do or think. How can it be free if it is already known?

Of course God knows what we're going to do because He exists outside time and can see time from the beginning to the end all at once. That doesn't mean He interferes with our choices. In addition, the body is the only part of a human being which is composed of matter. Humans also possess a mind and a spirit, which are immaterial. Notice I said mind, not brain. The brain is material, the mind is not.

Another argument I have against predictability involves the very beginning of time itself again. Prediction is a concept reliant on time, seeing something before it happens. But, time itself started somewhere, so the event of time beginning could not have been predicted by anyone living within the time stream, even supposing they had the resources to predict everything that would happen afterward.

Now for the "crazy" argument...this is going to get insane, trust me. Could someone who was predicted 10,000 years ago to be born 9080 years ago have predicted that he would grow up to predict that 9040 years later we would be posting arguments about predictability in a quite predictable forum and that a predictable man named Bloody would be predicted by his fellow predictable posters to predictably post his argument against predictability in a fashion that was most predictable? Can it be predicted that a predictable person will try to predict another predictable person's actions? Could it even be predicted that one day humans would invent the concept of unpredictability? Or is it even predictable that one would be unable to predict something? Can it be predicted that unpredictability will always exist? Or is unpredictability really the only thing we can predict? ... This could go on forever. I hope I haven't driven you all mad by now.

Well, yes, it is definitely possible. I've already stated we work like machines, but we just contain a lot more complex mechanisms. If the person 10k years ago had the information, knowledge, and reasoning, he would be able unravel everything from the start. This forum is predictable too, a bit harder to predict, but can still be predicted.

By the way, I really don't believe in immaterial concepts like souls, and have stated why somewhere on this site.

fishing is not a sport...its a way of life. gotta have breakfast.

there is NO way you could have predicted that eshploded.