Forums → WEPR → Does free will exist?

i used free will to throw your thesis off track.
1. i don't fish...don't eat it either.
2. i rarely eat breakfast
therefore, if you knew everything about me...there is no way you could have deduced that i would write that.

sorry to keep posting...

Umm... did I say I currently have the ability to do that? No.

Well, i'm guessing you probably haven't been paying attention to the rest of my posts, and thats fine by me, but don't expect yourself to be right for such a statement.

Hehe, maybe I should have left out the "insane" part. I still believe I'm an independent being possessing free will, and I can be happy and confident knowing that. I don't think I need to argue my position any further.

Predictability is neither here nor there for us. It is the fact that it can all be deduced. Every action has a cause. It isn't a choice, it is just the way things are. This means that free will is simply an illusion. You just feel that you are making choices. Like when Wally typed the fishing post. It can be deduced to a cause. Now, just because the cause isn't apparent, does not mean it does not exist.

But, again, I am with Eshploded. To debate correctly, everyone needs to read posts in full. It is frustrating arguing with someone if they are not paying attention to what you are writing.

of course it does you can always do what you want to do but its not always best

Well, I [i]believe[i] people are 100% predictable if we had the resources (not only money, but also information) we can predict the move of every person, including their thoughts. Remember, we are only matter, and our species are jsut a more complex version of any other animal with rational thinking.-Eshploded
"Umm... did I say I currently have the ability to do that? No."-Eshploded
i did read all the posts and that is still my response. EVEN with money and information...there is no way you could have predicted that...because i have free will.

"Predictability is neither here nor there for us. It is the fact that it can all be deduced. Every action has a cause. It isn't a choice, it is just the way things are. This means that free will is simply an illusion. You just feel that you are making choices. Like when Wally typed the fishing post. It can be deduced to a cause. Now, just because the cause isn't apparent, does not mean it does not exist."
-Asherlee

i created the cause out of free will to disprove a theory. and again...just because you don't agree, doesn't mean i didn't read. check out page 3...i've been w/ this thread for a couple weeks.

Yeah, I did get a bit rash on what I said, I do that a lot.

Well, if I knew every bit about you, Wally, your past and everything which could affect your behavior, like how your parents treated you or your religious background. I would also have to know how the present enviroment would affect you too.

You know why I think a person is so predictable? Because I have analyzed nearly all of my past and have based my behavior to be linear by that. I could be traced back to start, and why should it be any more different for you? Because you believe so?

no it doesn't exsist

I agree with Bloody Wolf, and yes, if you believe that you have free will, then you know that you can do something that you wouldn't normally do (sorry that doesn't make sense, but neither does anything worth thinking about).

A life is 'retty much linear' because there are a lot of paths that are 'retty much linear.' Human nature, or instincts, as some people call it, is to choose the path of least resistance, with short-term gratification, which is usually the 'linear' path. However, there are people who completely turn their life around, change religions abruptly, or do whatever they want.

I believe that there is free will to choose what you do or what you think, but noone can choose the concequences of their actions. If you choose to steal, you go to jail. If you chose to pick your nose, your nose might start bleeding and everyone makes fun of you.

The free will helps you break free from your habits, and of the things that you do monotamously (sorry if I spelled that wrong).

I know it's hard to explain one idea to someone who believes the opposite, but here it goes:
I'm using my free will to have free will,
Those who don't believe in free will are using their not-free-will to have not-free-will.

You may not see it right now, but breaking from habits is not spontaneous or a phenomenom, it is provoked in fact from other factors past and present (but of course present doesn't usually have a large influence rather than past experiences).

A thought experiment for your consideration:
You are knocked unconscious by scientists who then clone you and place you and your clone in separate rooms which are exactly the same in every way. In addition, you and your clone are also exactly the same. What sorts of "choices" would each make? Would they both wake up, scratch their head and walk around? At what point would their actions begin to differ?

Looking at this biologically, if everything was exactly the same, then their heartbeats, breathing, blood circulation, etc. would be identical (at least until some different external stimulus changed that).

Now, if consciousness is not the same thing as free will, then it is at least a necessary condition for free will. And where does consciousness lie? In the brain, of course, which is also simply another biological organ. So why wouldn't this function in exactly the same way for both you and your clone?

Another example is brain surgery. Often neurosurgeons must electrically stimulate certain parts of the brain (you are awake during this procedure). The sensations that you experience such as muscle spasms, intense smells, or even certain intense emotions let the surgeon know on which part of the brain he/she is operating. Here is a direct and current example of someone not only predicting but being able to control your actions and thoughts (to an extent).

With the clone situation, there are always limitations. There is no way to make their environmental factors and other stimuli 100% the same in both rooms. IF that was the case, then how do we know they would not do the SAME exact thing at the SAME exact time?

Yes, that is my point. That's what it's a *thought* experiment as opposed to a real one.

This seems wayyyy too familiar... "thought experiment 2". Yeah. That must be it.

Alright, we've been talking about the predictability of behavior issue for quite some time now. In case I didn't show it earlier, I do believe behavior can be predicted to a very limited extent depending on how much you know about a person, but not completely predicted. Predictability does not have everything to do with free will, either. If I go to lunch, I could choose either a turkey sandwich or a beef sandwich. My friend predicts that I'll choose turkey since I've told him (truthfully, too) that I like the taste of turkey better. However, I may choose that I want a beef sandwich today because it's been a long time since my last one, or even just for the heck of it. Behavior is never truly predictable, even with a near-unlimited amount of information about the person you're predicting for, and the current environmental conditions. Even with the limited ability to predict a person's choices based on preference or experience, that has little bearing on the actual concept of free will. Free will is being able to make decisions against the push of environmental or even internal stimuli. One example I mentioned earlier was that even if a person's system is flooded with aggression hormones in an unfriendly encounter with another person, he can choose by will to ignore those hormones and not act on his anger. We see people pushing against the influences around them all the time.