last i check fasci forge owns ops. Its very similar to what inflict was saying. if its against a bank post you have to use bank forge gen(2 scouts rest romans). Against eveything else you use a bank forge post(2 tanks 3 scouts X romans). Against bank post you have to apply a constant unwavering pressure that will slowly kill the monarch while against everything else you have to play it like a capi and out resource them. The reason why this works against post is because the pressure you put with romans is too dangerous to be ignored. If you use tanks, you waste your eco because the scouts kill them off. If you call in marines, my romans come in before your tanks can kill them due to the quantity and early field. As for stuff like bank forge, they can be  countered because as a fasci, you will always win an air fight and get the pin. However, your opponent threatens a pinbreak by using ops. This forces you to adapt using post 3rd. With that you can squeeze 2 tanks for a pin, while you still have romans knocking at their door. This forces a premature pinbreak. The monarch cannot missile due to the energy spent by the forge. Your prides will not survive due to divisive fire from scouts and tanks. your spec forces would not survive due to divisive fire from your romans and tanks. Im not even going into detail about far snipers. Even if you add in units like scouts, your key units(pride/special forces) would be long gone.

if only i could have said it as good as that....

bank forge opps is an awful build in 1v1. it olny works in 2v2 cause you can afford to be 5 seconds late cause your covered. even then you at a disadvantage cause if opponents have both cap/fac rushed and r good plyers it will make it easyier for them to take advantage

the earthquake/dogfight trick doesn't work does it
p.s the sniper tactic is basically invincible in safe skies... but the problem is that accumilating that much manpower and then recruiting all at once without any phantoms/chronite tanks ringing at the doorstep is the biggest problem, because 1 sniper=like 5 marines?

the earthquake/dogfight trick doesn't work does it

idk what trick your refering to but... Its pretty much certain that the most domininant Eq strat is post first with a rapid tank pin with eventual development into medics. As for Df its basically a forge rush. Idk the exact variation but i usually develop into an armory second for a mod phant kill.

without any phantoms/chronite tanks ringing at the doorstep is the biggest problem

The way i like dealing with that problem is dual building(capi). My typical build would be bank, post, barracks, gen, then ether solarpanal or forge depending on your needs. You'll need good micro but the final goal is use the mod sakata as a spear head killing all the ground, defend it through snipers, then counter rival air through a continous stream of scouts and microed snipers

thaat gets destroyed by fasc phantoms

thaat gets destroyed by fasc phantoms

Last i check it doesnt. But then again 2vs1ing noobs players isnt the same as 2vs2ing pros

The reason why phantoms arent seen much in HL play is due to its cost and actual useage. The cost for phantoms( 60 for the upgrade and 23 for each heli) is considered suicide due to the gap of production and how walled off you are of options. Plus due to its ground only range, it leaves it vulnerable to common air units like scouts. The final threat is also suppose to be its "strong point". Phantoms in theory are suppose to decimate ground, however if microed properly, marines can attack phants. this eliminates the advantage your suppose to have over ground making your upgrade useless, hurting yor eco

Anyhow,
The strat i gave included variations so it all depends on the situation. Forge first wouldnt have a phantom threat due to the low eco spent on scout. Bank forge manu also wouldnt have much of a chance due to the eco and pinning threat posed by marines and snipers. bank tres forge manu still poses the marine threat. Bank post forge manu seems possible, but i have a feeling the mod sakata would pose a bigger threat than the snipers causing phants to be useless. Bank forge gen manu also wouldnt work due to your hurting eco.

Reading the above posts, I mostly agree with Inflict, I think phantoms added with scouts would be too much to handle. Snipers and scouts don't provide much air counter. But yes, this all depends on your teammates and their strats as well. Of course I may be totally wrong and out of my realm here, too.

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thaat gets destroyed by fasc phantoms
Last i check it doesnt. But then again 2vs1ing noobs players isnt the same as 2vs2ing pros
The reason why phantoms arent seen much in HL play is due to its cost and actual useage. The cost for phantoms( 60 for the upgrade and 23 for each heli) is considered suicide due to the gap of production and how walled off you are of options. Plus due to its ground only range, it leaves it vulnerable to common air units like scouts. The final threat is also suppose to be its "strong point". Phantoms in theory are suppose to decimate ground, however if microed properly, marines can attack phants. this eliminates the advantage your suppose to have over ground making your upgrade useless, hurting yor eco
Anyhow,
The strat i gave included variations so it all depends on the situation. Forge first wouldnt have a phantom threat due to the low eco spent on scout. Bank forge manu also wouldnt have much of a chance due to the eco and pinning threat posed by marines and snipers. bank tres forge manu still poses the marine threat. Bank post forge manu seems possible, but i have a feeling the mod sakata would pose a bigger threat than the snipers causing phants to be useless. Bank forge gen manu also wouldnt work due to your hurting eco.

draco. for the first time in my life i have decided you are totaly wrong in every aspect.

if its 2v2 your talking about then your better off going for 1 or the other and iff your speeking 1v1 the you will be totaly out resorced.

lets have a 1v1 walkthrough

me (facs): bank
you (capi): bank

even steevens other that if this were a blind match you would know my gov and i would only be able to guess yours.

me: forge
you: post

thing get intresting. asuming were eveny matched, (which we're not... your much better)
you will pin. and start saveing for next builing whil i will siply keep attaking with scouts and romans and edventualy pinbreak about the same time as you start building your next structure.

me: second bank
you: brackers
i will have a 2 or 3 scout pin with a coupple of romans by the time you have your bracks ready.. while i will have only just started building my bank.

now its your turn to pin break. and will proberbly do so quite fast. it now down to micro

i wont have much energy and you wont have enough manpower to threaten me properly with snipers.
i recon nobody will take pin due to lack of resorces.

me: factory
you:gen

you will make a genorator long before i start building a factory. this will probs give i time to pin seeing as factory requiers somthing other than money.

i will then build 1 pantom and strat romaning.

i will hae much better units and pin with 5 scouts 3 pants and 4 romans.

me: arm
you:forge

your forge once again will come before my arm and probably just after my pin. you will have a fair bit of energy but it will be to no avail cause when i see you start building i will just keep on building up scouts.

i will get my armory and set it to energy. i will make one sacata. whether you have broke or not  is irrelevant seeing as you will not have had time to pin me. i will have 1 aa + 2 pants. enought to take down your entire army. when i have a pin going i will just rush your base.

the reason i can win is beacause it is hard for you to use your capi advantage of extra resorces cause you have not much manpower and you dont have a forge till late game and even then you have no armory makeing it near impossible for you to counter aa + air.

you cant rush and beat bme in erly game cause you have very limeted resorces up unitl you have your forge. and by that time scots can do no good.

i will mod phant before you mod sacata.

and you cant wait till i pin the just start oldschooling cause roman pose to much of a thret to your base.

thanx :)

inflict

Here is how to get hovers within 2 minutes and 11 seconds

WARNING! BEST USED WHEN IN 2v2 AND EARTHQUAKE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTKH74L05dg

Snipers and scouts don't provide much air counter

Scouts vs scouts will definately equalize... However i dont understand why someone would use snipers as an air counter(unless its saints). Its much more efficient to use marines since marines 4 marines kill 1 scout.

and start saveing for next builing whil i will siply keep attaking with scouts and romans and edventualy pinbreak about the same time as you start building your next structure.

thats the first issue. Thats not how this build is played. I start off with 4 marines. This forces you to go romans since scouts against a marine pressure is suicide. The main tactic here is just the pressure, not the pin

i will have a 2 or 3 scout pin with a coupple of romans by the time you have your bracks ready.. while i will have only just started building my bank.

Unfortunately that is also false. My barracks will come out before your romans reach me due to the high eco of capi. Furthermore, if you make scouts, atleast 1 would die from the light marine pressure.

i wont have much energy and you wont have enough manpower to threaten me properly with snipers.
i recon nobody will take pin due to lack of resorces.

This is partly true. However since i know your using a forge, there is no reason for me to use snipers. Romans are a very strong counter in this situation, preventing snipers from being any use. However i will have a small army of units and if i cannot pin, ill atleast control the center

me: factory
you:gen
you will make a genorator long before i start building a factory. this will probs give i time to pin seeing as factory requiers somthing other than money.

This is also another misinterpretation of strategy. In this case since your using very heavy eco(2 banks) i would ether go forge 3rd or hospital 3rd. Hospital is the more sound approach because that enforces a pin, however if i go forge i can take a more aggresive advantage of the fact your air is lacking. Though there is a chance that my gen would beat your factory, but like you said thats a big chance to take.

i will then build 1 pantom and strat romaning.
i will hae much better units and pin with 5 scouts 3 pants and 4 romans.

Heres where your problems start bubbling over. You still havent countered my marine threat or my scout/medic threat. The moment i get 8 marines, your air is greatly hindered and your romans are forced to bunch together for divisive fire. My tanks are also ensuring your romans do not pass. As for your phantoms, they are forced to attack one by one. I may continue microing my marines, but you have virtually nothing threatening them.

me: arm
you:forge
your forge once again will come before my arm and probably just after my pin. you will have a fair bit of energy but it will be to no avail cause when i see you start building i will just keep on building up scouts.

Lets see this build so far
Draco:bank50, post40, barracks30, gen50, forge40= 210 money
Inflict:bank50, forge40, bank50, factory60, armory60=260 money

Unit wise
ive spent my money on maybe 2 tanks. while you still believe that you can squeeze 3 phantoms. thats an additional 69 almost 70 dollars. that means your final count would be
Draco:220
Inflict:329

That is some major miscalculation. Its understandable that you have dual banks but even with that, you cant out eco a capitalist that fast. thats 100 dollars more in about a time span of 2 minutes.i didnt even factor in th prices needed for you to sustain your scouts.

Plus your also believing a fascist can win an air fight without a gen. The marines flanking you from the ground vs my scouts in the air. You have a choice. Attack me with the phantoms and get attaked by the kamakazied marines and scouts. Or use your scouts to overwhelm my scouts, while they fall victim to the marines.

Within this period you also have the mod sakata.And with the coming of the mod sakata, you would have a barrage of infinite scouts, and ether marines or snipers.

the reason i can win is beacause it is hard for you to use your capi advantage of extra resorces cause you have not much manpower

I do have the man power simply because theres no reason for me to hoard snipers against a forge.

you dont have a forge till late game and even then you have no armory makeing it near impossible for you to counter aa + air.

This would be false because i would get forge before you would get armory. If need be i will threaten an early victory with rushed romans, forcing you to go phantoms. If you go phantoms, you delay your armory and fall from my scout pin. If you go scouts, my marines and my own scouts will buy the time needed for my own romans to destroy the base. Once you do get your armory, my mod sakata would be on its way killing all ground rivalry. I just need a way to defend against air which would be the scouts and marines

you cant rush and beat bme in erly game cause you have very limeted resorces up unitl you have your forge. and by that time scots can do no good.

Again your math is wrong by like 100 points.

i will mod phant before you mod sacata.

Its more likely that our units will come out at the same time. and even if it did, it poses no threat to the mod sakata, rendering your anti air useless

and you cant wait till i pin the just start oldschooling cause roman pose to much of a thret to your base.

very true.

So heres the summary of my arguement.

-You will not overwhelm me due to my lack of snipers
-The period between your second bank and manufactory hurts your energy supply greatly, causing my manpower to overcome your energy
-Due to your drop in energy, i may pin you with 2 tanks and a good portion of marines
-the period between my forge and your armory is also too great.
-My romans will force you to make moves
- If needed, i could completely avoid the barracks and go into ordinary tdh build
- If needed, i can skip the forge and use a hospital.
- You cannot pin me in the beginning, however i can pin you
- If you choose to pinbreak, you are forced to use a dual build. If this does occur i may use snipers. However that removes the need for a gen and a hospital would be required.
- You are overestimating the power of dual banks. Your second bank comes too late in the game to affect the game that severely

Now if you would like to call in effects of a 2vs2, we can continue on that portion of the debate

thats the first issue. Thats not how this build is played. I start off with 4 marines. This forces you to go romans since scouts against a marine pressure is suicide. The main tactic here is just the pressure, not the pin

that would not change my game start at all. that is a popular opening.

i would 2 romans then scouts.

infact im going to stop arguing and go try this out with nubble. but i get you now.

i would like you to remember you dont have much more manpower than i have energy.

this is basicaly a race to see who cant get out there unit first. your saint or my aa.

so i would play very aggressive forcing you on the back leg hence making you move and evry time we bring out new units at the beginning it becomes more to my upper hand cause my building cost supplys im not realy useing by makeing units.