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DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-weiss/pashtun-nationalism_b_2117534.html

Pashtun/pathan is a ethnic group in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do you think creating Pashtunistan will defeat Taliban and create stability to the region?

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thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

Pashtun/pathan is a ethnic group in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do you think creating Pashtunistan will defeat Taliban and create stability to the region?

Do you?
and based on what?
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

No. The Pashtuns have traditionally dominated Afghan politics, why would they want to give that up? Plus, the war isn't about independence, it's about kicking the Americans out, and imposing a non-secular government.

thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

To be honest, USA is trying to save face desperately

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Ha, more than desperately. It's been how many years already? More than a decade. And then they miraculously decide it's because they wanted a separate state? If so, why then did the Pashtuns not declare independence when the Pashtun dominated Taliban controlled Kabul?

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Try suggesting that either side give up a little land. You'll get a warmer reception trying to teach Hamas Torah.


Did you read the article? It's not about Palestine.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

More over, tribal areas are more of like in an alliance with pakistan rather than a part of it(although technicaly they are part of it) with their different rules etc.
This aliance was formed by loya jarga who signed an agreement with muhammad ali jannah

DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

Do you?
and based on what?


yes, based the fact it would be easier to remove the talibans by nationalism.

No. The Pashtuns have traditionally dominated Afghan politics, why would they want to give that up?


they have, but no longer. currently most of the afghan government is dominated by other ethnic groups.

why then did the Pashtuns not declare independence when the Pashtun dominated Taliban controlled Kabul?


because it is forbidden in Islam to be nationalist and the talibans was very extreme when it came to religion. pakistan had no military presence in pashtun areas back then, and didnt restrict them from going freely around in those areas. this is which will change in time, since both Afghanistan is having a real government and Pakistan have increased its military presence in Pashtunkhwa.

To be honest, USA is trying to save face desperately


They may or may not, but the fact is, that the taliban will be easily defeated if Pashtunistan is created. right now USA is wasting money on Afghanistan and Pakistan, since the money doesn't get to Pashtun areas. Basically what they are doing now is indirectly fighting talibans. in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.

Right now, no matter how much USA will support Pakistan and Afghanistan, the Talibans will just come back, deadlier then ever.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

because it is forbidden in Islam to be nationalist and the talibans was very extreme when it came to religion. pakistan had no military presence in pashtun areas back then, and didnt restrict them from going freely around in those areas. this is which will change in time, since both Afghanistan is having a real government and Pakistan have increased its military presence in Pashtunkhwa.


It isn't forbidden. Early contemporary Islamic leaders made very much use of nationalism, such as Nasser. Since then, after the failure of such Pan Arabic, Islamic movements, nationalism has been viewed with utmost suspicion, leading in part to the rise of religious fundamentalism. That's why nationalism isn't bred strongly. On the other hand, Afghans do have a strong sense of nationalism, coming from years of invasions from various powers, Britain, the USSR, the US.

yes, based the fact it would be easier to remove the talibans by nationalism.


No it isn't. The aim of the Taliban differs, when you consider the Afghan and Pakistani branches of the group. A key distinguishing factors between the two Talibans is that the Afghans insist they have a strictly local agenda of liberating their homeland, many analysts say. Beyond that, they would prefer to be left alone.

In contrast, the Pakistani Taliban has embraced al Qaedaâs vision of pan-Islamic rule, and it has increasingly targeted the Pakistani state instead of helping its Afghan brethren, aiming to set up an Islamic Caliphate so to speak.

A Pakistani Taliban spokesman, Muslim Khan, has said that his organization aims to establish a strict fundamentalist Islamic system, not only in Pakistan, but also throughout the world starting from South Asia

but the fact is, that the taliban will be easily defeated if Pashtunistan is created.


No it isn't. The Taliban is a bizarre mix of both Pashtun tribal culture and strict Islam. Giving them a state will only allow them to consolidate power further, much like how the West fears what the insurgents will do in Mali now.

In any case, Pakistan will never ever give up territory unless by force.
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

They may or may not, but the fact is, that the taliban will be easily defeated if Pashtunistan is created. right now USA is wasting money on Afghanistan and Pakistan, since the money doesn't get to Pashtun areas. Basically what they are doing now is indirectly fighting talibans. in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.

I seriously fail to see logic behind this
thepunisher93
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thepunisher93
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Nomad

they have, but no longer. currently most of the afghan government is dominated by other ethnic groups.

govrnment standing on NATO crutches.
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
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Peasant

Did you read the article? It's not about Palestine.

It was an analogy, maybe a bad one.

They may or may not, but the fact is, that the taliban will be easily defeated if Pashtunistan is created. right now USA is wasting money on Afghanistan and Pakistan, since the money doesn't get to Pashtun areas. Basically what they are doing now is indirectly fighting talibans. in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.

How? They'll just fight over that bit of land, too.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

It was an analogy, maybe a bad one.


Ah ok, thanks for clarifying.

in the other hand, if they used the same amount money to build a government in Pashtunistan, then the effort and money would go to directly fighting taliban. In that case will the defeat of taliban be assured.


Giving a group bent on the spread of radical Islam world wide is never the best of plans.
DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

It isn't forbidden.


I dont know if it is or not, but the extremist considered it forbidden. Especially the Taliban.

On the other hand, Afghans do have a strong sense of nationalism, coming from years of invasions from various powers, Britain, the USSR, the US.


They may have it, but since they think it forbidden, they dont work on it.

A key distinguishing factors between the two Talibans is that the Afghans insist they have a strictly local agenda of liberating their homeland


exactly, a civil war will happened after USA leave Afghanistan.

In contrast, the Pakistani Taliban has embraced al Qaedaâs vision of pan-Islamic rule, and it has increasingly targeted the Pakistani state instead of helping its Afghan brethren, aiming to set up an Islamic Caliphate so to speak.


And how do you remove these people from power. By creating Pashtunistan and supporting modern Pashtuns. This way nationalism will replace extremism from Talibans.

No it isn't. The Taliban is a bizarre mix of both Pashtun tribal culture and strict Islam. Giving them a state will only allow them to consolidate power further,


Why didnt it fail in Afghanistan. I mean the support of a government. Basically USA will be doing the same thing in Pashtunistan, as they did in Afghanistan. The difference is however in the effectiveness. USA will be fighting Talibans and liberating the oppressed people directly.
In other words, the strict Islam would be replaced with Pashtun culture and modern Islam.

I seriously fail to see logic behind this


Now look it in this way. All support Afghanistan is receiving is given to Tajik, Hazara, Usbek etc. since they are the majority in the afghan government. The support Pakistan is receiving is given to punjab the same reason as above. Which make the pashtun population still live in poverty. The main source of Taliban recruiting is in fact the poor people, which is most likely send to madrassas. In other words, the amount of support Afghanistan and Pakistan is receiving isn't gone to the effort to reduce the Taliban capability, or liberating it people for that matter.

By creating Pashtunistan it will reduce the cost of war both to Pakistan and Afghanistan, and of course USA. And democracy will be secured in the entire region.
DSM
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DSM
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Nomad

How? They'll just fight over that bit of land, too.


You do know, they are not fighting each other, right?
They already own the land and this way spreading the extremism.

Giving a group bent on the spread of radical Islam world wide is never the best of plans.


I am not saying to support Taliban, but creating a government for the modern Pashtuns, and give support to Pashtun nationalism instead of extremism. This way they can spread the nationalistic pride to the rest of Pashtuns, which will replace the Talibans and it supporters.
wontgetmycatnip
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wontgetmycatnip
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Peasant

You do know, they are not fighting each other, right?

If that is the case, it is simply because they are not actively trying to fight over the same piece of land currently.

I am not saying to support Taliban, but creating a government for the modern Pashtuns, and give support to Pashtun nationalism instead of extremism.

Nationalist movements that are politically successful are almost always extremist and/or power hungry. If we succeeded at creating "Pashtun Nationalism" we would simply be replacing one problematic group with another.
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